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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

4K Projection?

Ryan Sims

Ryan Sims

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My understanding of the Sony 4K cinema projectors is that it takes 4 HD-SDI signals to make the 4K image (8 Dual Link HD-SDI if you want 4:4:4). Each HD-SDI signal is 1/4 the image. You need 4 HD-SDI decks playing back in-sync their corner of the full picture. Is this true? So a RED 4K movie file must be cut up into 4 pieces before it can be shown at full 4K resolution currently on the Sony SXRD projectors?

Just wondered if this is really correct.
 
I'd be more interested in a RED 4K LCD.
 
Both RedRyan and Graeme are correct. For a 4K image the projector takes in four 2K input signals. You can either do this over HD-SDI or through DVI.

We use a 'kg' box to play back 4K that it will dynamically split up in four 2K pieces.
 
For the past two months I have been trying to find every possible way to get 4K 4:4:4 out of Assimilate Scratch, realtime to the SXRD for 4K monitoring. I know neither of these boxes will help with that, but we even thought there might be a way to push it out of the workstation just by playing back on the Windows desktop, but this would have meant pushing the Windows frame buffer to it's max, and when tested only delivered something like 12fps, and it was the graphics cards that were the bottleneck not the bandwidth from storage, so it was pretty useless.

Do you guys have any solutions for this that you test with? Do you guys use Scratch or Baselight for your online work in testing?

I suppose it's not really that necessary, grading at 2K from Scratch is fine, but I'd be interested to know how long it takes to export your 4K finished media out to something like the KG box?

Will it pull data directly from a Brightdrive4K drive array at 4K 4:4:4 over Fibre Channel or do you guys copy the media onto it's internal drives first?
 
4K Hub said:
For the past two months I have been trying to find every possible way to get 4K 4:4:4 out of Assimilate Scratch, realtime to the SXRD for 4K monitoring. I know neither of these boxes will help with that, but we even thought there might be a way to push it out of the workstation just by playing back on the Windows desktop, but this would have meant pushing the Windows frame buffer to it's max, and when tested only delivered something like 12fps, and it was the graphics cards that were the bottleneck not the bandwidth from storage, so it was pretty useless.
Click to expand...

Right now, to my knowledge - there is not a good way to feed 4K from SCRATCH to the SXRD. We thought that the QuadroplexIII might provide the answer, but Quadroplex's internal design is not at all built for high throughput. It's more suited as an impressive number cruncher for 3D and VizSim. There is some new stuff coming from NVidia that may help, but that is at least a few months away.

4K Hub said:
I suppose it's not really that necessary, grading at 2K from Scratch is fine, but I'd be interested to know how long it takes to export your 4K finished media out to something like the KG box?
Click to expand...

If you set up your I/O pipes correctly, then rendering at 4K to external files from SCRATCH would be near realtime - assuming DPX files as an input. RED renders are still being tested and perfected and it would be misleading to quote numbers right now.

4K Hub said:
Will it pull data directly from a Brightdrive4K drive array at 4K 4:4:4 over Fibre Channel or do you guys copy the media onto it's internal drives first?
Click to expand...

The KG cannot externally connect to a Fibre array. Media must be on internal storage.

Lucas Wilson
------------
ASSIMILATE, Inc.
LA, CA, USA
 
offhollywood said:
time for a new projector - when can we reserve?

I need two ... 'cause 3D is all the rage ...
Click to expand...

If you run at double-rate through the RealD switching polariser you only need one... thing is, have you got the playout box to do 4K at 48+fps?
 
cailyoung said:
If you run at double-rate through the RealD switching polariser you only need one... thing is, have you got the playout box to do 4K at 48+fps?
Click to expand...

yeah, I know - but much better (and cheaper) for me to just have TWO projectors so I can color grade in 3D straight out of Scratch - turn off one and raise the silver screen for 2D stuff ...
 
offhollywood said:
yeah, I know - but much better (and cheaper) for me to just have TWO projectors so I can color grade in 3D straight out of Scratch - turn off one and raise the silver screen for 2D stuff ...
Click to expand...

Hmm, not so sure about that. I don't know that Scratch is intended or capable of 3D... Lucas, maybe you'll have some more input?

We have already determined that one stream of uncompressed 4K straight out of Scratch cannot yet be monitored on a 4K projector, so that certainly rules out two 4K streams simultaneously. I don't think you'll possibly get the data throughput for it anyway, getting one 4K stream out of a Brightdrive4K array over Fibre Channel is already pushing things.

So lets assume two 2K streams, that can be done bandwidth wise, but I also don't know if you can run two 2K Catalyst cards side by side in one workstation, or as I said to begin with if Scratch can even be set up for that, or has the toolset for it.

I am more than happy to be told I am wrong about this though.

I think we'll get an interesting response from Lucas on this one.
 
Ahhh! I am wrong! Scratch is in fact the only DI tool that can provide 3D screening (just checked on the website).

Sorry about that. That certainly is impressive though.
 
4K Hub said:
Ahhh! I am wrong! Scratch is in fact the only DI tool that can provide 3D screening (just checked on the website).

Sorry about that. That certainly is impressive though.
Click to expand...

yes it is very, very cool.

And there are several MAJOR MOTION PICTURES in 3D in the works, and more every day that will be using Scratch ...
 
I never even knew. Crazy, our Assimilate guru here in S.A., Graham Austin gave me a full demo of the system and we were sold purely on it's 2D DI functionality and cost. I never even knew it could handle 3D!

It says a lot about something when you can sell it effortlessly without even boasting it's full capabilities.
 
4K Hub said:
I never even knew. Crazy, our Assimilate guru here in S.A., Graham Austin gave me a full demo of the system and we were sold purely on it's 2D DI functionality and cost. I never even knew it could handle 3D!

It says a lot about something when you can sell it effortlessly without even boasting it's full capabilities.
Click to expand...

4KHUB - you will never keep up with it's full capabilities - and they have a KILLER roadmap for the future - Scratch has changed our business almost overnight - the scene detection feature alone is so rock solid and accurate it's scary -
 
offhollywood said:
4KHUB - you will never keep up with it's full capabilities - and they have a KILLER roadmap for the future - Scratch has changed our business almost overnight - the scene detection feature alone is so rock solid and accurate it's scary -
Click to expand...

I remember specifically being very impressed with that. You get a few variables right and it does the rest for you. If I remember though there were always a few adjustments that needed to be made by hand.

Still, it's awesome.

Red and Assimilate together are... I'm lost for words, there is nothing to describe what they are busy doing and the impact it is already having.
 
4K Hub said:
I think we'll get an interesting response from Lucas on this one.
Click to expand...

Well... not sure if this will be interesting, but it will be accurate and true. :)

We have several customers doing high-end, high-resolution stereoscopic post-production on SCRATCH:

3ALITY in Burbank owns several SCRATCH systems, and they are doing all conform and color for the U23D movie on SCRATCH.
Digital Domain in Venice is one of our oldest and largest customers, and they did all the dailies review for Meet The Robinsons in stereo with SCRATCH through the RealD system.
Walden Media owns several SCRATCH systems and is doing all the conform and color for Journey to the Center of the Earth on SCRATCH in stereo - including remote synchronized dailies and review sessions between LA and Montreal.

There are more, but I am bound by NDA to not talk about them. :matrix:

In each of these cases, we are doing either HD 4:4:4 or 2K stereoscopic at 24 and/or 30fps. All 3 customers are doing different storage configs depending on their needs... local storage, Bright Systems, and Terrablock.

We feed two separate outputs on the NVidia cards, with left eye and right eye going down separate channels and the GUI is mirrored and converged slightly in front of the screen. So when the goggles go on and LE and RE are overlayed - the effect is a 3D GUI that hovers in front of the actual LE/RE image planes.

There are several ways of monitoring stereo, and we try hard to avoid picking sides. SCRATCH just provides dual outputs, and customers can view stereo however they wish. Again - different people with different solutions for different needs. Dual projector with linear polarization, dual projectors with circular polarization, single project with RealD, single projector with onboard Stereo shuttering and active glasses - etc, etc.

So short answer... SCRATCH does stereo, and has been "battle tested" with some very high-end productions... and we continue to advance and move forward. :)

Cheers,

Lucas Wilson
------------
ASSIMILATE, Inc.
LA, CA, USA
(...but currently in Sydney...)
 
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