4K Projection?

[Cail Young]

SCRATCH just provides dual outputs, and customers can view stereo however they wish. Again - different people with different solutions for different needs. Dual projector with linear polarization, dual projectors with circular polarization, single project with RealD, single projector with onboard Stereo shuttering and active glasses - etc, etc.

This is great news.

 

[Bruce Allen]

Bruce, it sounds like you get to do some awesome work. Who do you work for?

Rich

I'm at a company called mOcean - can't recommend them highly enough. Really great people. Somehow they manage to be edgy and creative, slick and "Hollywood" yet honest and kind-hearted all at the same time. And make money. And not pull perpetual all-nighters. It's a tricky balancing act. I wish I could figure out how they do it. I think it involves years of working hard and building trust with good clients. Anyway, I am having a ton of fun and feel very lucky to be there.

We do things like movie title sequences (eg Crash, Pursuit of Happyness, Borat), movie trailers and TV campaigns (a ton of stuff - from Ocean's 13 to Napoleon Dynamite) and broadcast / promo work (eg promo campaigns for The Shield, Nip / Tuck, rebranding BBC America). Basically, motion picture marketing / entertainment branding / etc. With a sense of humor.

Check 'em out - www.mocean.tv

If you have any general questions, I'd be happy to answer... specific questions (eg exactly what we are working on now, or anything that would hurt our clients in any way) I definitely can't. We have wonderful clients and would like to keep them

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

 

[david farland]

Bruce...........nice splash page.

 

[Blair S. Paulsen]

Bruce - the promo campaign for Dirt absolutely rocks. Congrats on finding such a great firm to work for, it ain't easy.

 

[Jeff Brue]

Just as a plug for scratch. It can do a lot of really cool tricks that arn't ever really advertised, just because they come as expected as in any high end software system. The coup though is working with red footage...It makes me very happy that I have two seats.

On another note for the 4k thing. The 4k broken up into 4 2k streams is silly and rather stupid in my opinion. Half of its color management issues are because of that setup, and for the record on a 20ft screen you can not tell the difference between 2k and 4k.

 

[Graeme Nattress]

and for the record on a 20ft screen you can not tell the difference between 2k and 4k.

I guess it must be these special 4k spectacles I got from Jim that allows me to see the difference then

Graeme

 

[StereoScope]

3-D projection

3-D projection

time for a new projector - when can we reserve?

I need two ... 'cause 3D is all the rage ...

Although two projectors are great for brightness on very large screens, most theatrical 3-D digital cinema exhibitions so far have used a single projector with the RealD "Z screen" attachment.

John A. Rupkalvis,
StereoScope International

 

[M Most]

Although two projectors are great for brightness on very large screens, most theatrical 3-D digital cinema exhibitions so far have used a single projector with the RealD "Z screen" attachment.

That is correct, but what you're talking about is a distribution/exhibition format. It requires a custom refresh rate (I believe it's 120fps for ReadD) and the ability to play this from a stream designed to carry both eyes sequentially. For post production, the current "standard" (well, there is no "standard," but the way that a lot of people are working would make it a de facto standard) is to have two separate superimposed feeds, each fed from a separate video stream. This allows individual manipulation of each eye or both together, and it doesn't require any kind of preprocessing to put both in a single data stream.

 

[REDHKSC]

time for a new projector - when can we reserve?

I need two ... 'cause 3D is all the rage ...

JVC will be showing their ' NEW 4K " projector at InterBEE - November in Japan, and they will bring their 4K Projector in November 1st time in HKG as well.

I am welcome to any 4K RED footage from early RED owners to be showing or testing with JVC 4K projector in HKG for the Greater CHINA region.

Cheers,

STEWART
Founder
REDHKSC

 

[vsv]

Love to watch 2x2K (stereoscopic 3D) than 1x4K.
But good story on the screen must be first no matter resolution.
Don't like see sh*t at 4K

 

[StereoScope]

That is correct, but what you're talking about is a distribution/exhibition format. It requires a custom refresh rate (I believe it's 120fps for ReadD) and the ability to play this from a stream designed to carry both eyes sequentially. For post production, the current "standard" (well, there is no "standard," but the way that a lot of people are working would make it a de facto standard) is to have two separate superimposed feeds, each fed from a separate video stream. This allows individual manipulation of each eye or both together, and it doesn't require any kind of preprocessing to put both in a single data stream.

Regarding RealD, they still use a frame rate of 24fps, but each frame is alternately "flashed" three times for each eye-view during the interval of any one frame, for a "flash pitch" (or interruption rate, as it is usually referred to) of a total of 144 flashes per second (six per frame for both eye-views). This is sometimes confused, as the abbreviation of frames-per-second, fps, could also be construed to refer to flashes-per-second, which is an entirely different thing. I have also seen "ips", for "interruptions-per-second", which does help to differentiate between the two terms.

Most conventional theatrical film projectors use two-bladed "butterfly" shutters (although a small minority have used three bladed shutters and barrel shutters). The common two-blade type "flashes" each frame twice, for 48 interruptions-per-second of 24 frames-per-second material. This reduces the flicker rate, which is also the reason for multiple interruptions-per-frame with the RealD digital system.

You are quite correct, regarding post operations, during which it is usually best to keep the display as dual-discrete (two independent, other than sync, separate streams). It should be noted that for some operations, such as might be conducted in a small edit bay, it is not necessary to project the images. Shutter glasses may be used with conventional monoscopic monitors, although higher refresh rates (and interruption rates), are desirable to minimize flicker.

Stereoscopic 3-D monitors also exist that may be used for this purpose. Alternate line and alternate pixel polarization systems permit monitors that may be viewed with ordinary passive polarized (usually circular polarization) stereoscopic viewing glasses. These, in different configurations, are available through V-Rex, DDD, Arisawa, Samsung, Berezin, and probably others as well. These, however, all deliver only half-resolution to each eye-view, and have vertical angle viewing position restrictions.

Another option for post is the use of the StereoScope monitor, which has already been on the acquisition set for stereoscopic monitoring during production. This might also be useful during post. This monitor accepts dual discrete streams which may be viewed simultaneously with passive polarized glasses. Versions can be made with full resolution in each eye-view for any existing HD, 2K, or 4K format over a wide range of both horizontal and vertical viewing angles.

 

[M Most]

Regarding RealD, they still use a frame rate of 24fps, but each frame is alternately "flashed" three times for each eye-view during the interval of any one frame, for a "flash pitch" (or interruption rate, as it is usually referred to) of a total of 144 flashes per second (six per frame for both eye-views). This is sometimes confused, as the abbreviation of frames-per-second, fps, could also be construed to refer to flashes-per-second, which is an entirely different thing.

Yes, that's why I referred to it as a refresh rate rather than a frame rate.

Are the left and right eye images superimposed in the same digital frame (with separation and polarization applied at projection time), or are there actually 48 images per second in the stream (this would make sense for a DCP, using the 2K/48fps version of the standard).

 

[StereoScope]

Yes, that's why I referred to it as a refresh rate rather than a frame rate.

Are the left and right eye images superimposed in the same digital frame (with separation and polarization applied at projection time), or are there actually 48 images per second in the stream (this would make sense for a DCP, using the 2K/48fps version of the standard).

Most monitors usually take a finite period of time to "erase", or fade-out, the brightness on one pixel, before that same pixel location can be re-written on in the next frame, such that a "ghost" image is not perceived when objects move in the frame. With the old original CRTs, this was mainly determined by the phosphor type. With LCDs, plasma, etc., other factors, such as the brightness of back illumination, or the brightness of the source illumination, as well as the writing speed, and even visual lag in the retinas of the human eyes, also effect this. Although refresh rate is independent of frame rate, it does place a practical limit on how high or low a frame rate may be written with a particular monitor (or projector) type without seeing pixelation or "trailing edges" on moving objects. This is especially critical in stereoscopic imaging.

I presume that you are referring to the SMPTE DC28.0 standard. The specifications for the DC28.40 have not yet been finalized (I am one of many on the sub-committee).

Keep in mind that the RealD images are progressive frame-divided, not field-interlaced. For purposes of description, one frame consists of both the left-eye-view and the right eye view, not a left eye frame followed by a right-eye frame. As such, the display sequence, as it was described to me, is: Frame one, subframe 1L, 1R, 2L, 2R, 3L, 3R, frame two, 1L, 1R, 2L, 2R, 3L, 3R, frame three... etc. For the best clarification, I would suggest that you ask them directly, at www.reald.com

 

[vsv]

Mr.Rupkalvis, what you can say about Dolby Digital 3D Cinema solution?
What 3D projection system better in your eyes RealD or Dolby 3D ?

 

[StereoScope]

Mr.Rupkalvis, what you can say about Dolby Digital 3D Cinema solution?
What 3D projection system better in your eyes RealD or Dolby 3D ?

These are two very different systems, and the visual results differ. Each has some advantages and disadvantages as compared to the other.

Dolby uses the Infitec system. Infitec stands for: "Interference Filter Technology". Although Infitec has a website, I believe that Barco describes it better on their site (www.barco.com), at least the last time I looked.

Among the differences, the RealD system uses an alternating LCS shutter (which they call a "Z screen") in front of a single digital projector to project onto a special aluminized "silver" screen. This results in very nice color throughout the available hues.

The Infitec system may be projected on any screen, new or existing. However, the last time I saw it, there were slight color distortions. For example, whites and neutrals appeared too warm, as beige tones. Some cool colors (grass and sky) tended to look a little muddy, rather than vibrant. I am told that they are now correcting this with compensating software. I cannot comment on this newer version, as I have not seen it yet.

Another factor is that of cost effectiveness. The one-time cost of a "silver" screen can, depending on the size, be quite expensive, and must be underwritten over several screenings. The RealD circular polarized glasses, however, can be manufactured quite cheaply. The Infitec glasses used to be very expensive. This may also have changed, or be changing.

 

[M Most]

Although refresh rate is independent of frame rate, it does place a practical limit on how high or low a frame rate may be written with a particular monitor (or projector) type without seeing pixelation or "trailing edges" on moving objects. This is especially critical in stereoscopic imaging.

I was referring only to DLP Cinema projectors using the RealD system, which you already mentioned as having a 144fps rate.

I presume that you are referring to the SMPTE DC28.0 standard. The specifications for the DC28.40 have not yet been finalized (I am one of many on the sub-committee).

I'm also a SMPTE member and I keep very close tabs on DC28 progress. When I referred to the SMPTE involvement, I was referring to the general agreement between the existing DCI spec and nearly all proposals I know of that have come out of DC28. I would join the subcommittee if I happened to still live in Los Angeles, but I don't. I do plan on joining as an observer, though, I just haven't gotten around to it.

Keep in mind that the RealD images are progressive frame-divided, not field-interlaced. For purposes of description, one frame consists of both the left-eye-view and the right eye view, not a left eye frame followed by a right-eye frame. As such, the display sequence, as it was described to me, is: Frame one, subframe 1L, 1R, 2L, 2R, 3L, 3R, frame two, 1L, 1R, 2L, 2R, 3L, 3R, frame three... etc. For the best clarification, I would suggest that you ask them directly, at www.reald.com

I will. I met some of the RealD people at the Digital Cinema Summit at NAB, I'll get in touch with them.

 

[StereoScope]

I was referring only to DLP Cinema projectors using the RealD system, which you already mentioned as having a 144fps rate.



I'm also a SMPTE member and I keep very close tabs on DC28 progress. When I referred to the SMPTE involvement, I was referring to the general agreement between the existing DCI spec and nearly all proposals I know of that have come out of DC28. I would join the subcommittee if I happened to still live in Los Angeles, but I don't. I do plan on joining as an observer, though, I just haven't gotten around to it.

Great! I hope you do, and the sooner the better. A lot of important issues are being discussed. Also, some of the Working Groups as well as the sub-committee have teleconferencing, so it is possible to "join in" from almost anywhere that you have access to a telephone. In a few instances I was unable to attend myself due to other commitments, but I downloaded the PowerPoint graphics on my computer, and joined the teleconference by speakerphone. I could follow the PowerPoint slide-by-slide while the speaker was making the presentation, and even offer commentary to the group, so it was a completely interactive experience. It wasn't the same as being there in person, but darn close. We even had members calling in from Japan, Australia, and other countries.


I will. I met some of the RealD people at the Digital Cinema Summit at NAB, I'll get in touch with them.

In the technical area, Lenny Lipton and Josh Greer are probably the ones to ask for.

 

[Lucas Wilson]

That is correct, but what you're talking about is a distribution/exhibition format. It requires a custom refresh rate (I believe it's 120fps for ReadD) and the ability to play this from a stream designed to carry both eyes sequentially. For post production, the current "standard" (well, there is no "standard," but the way that a lot of people are working would make it a de facto standard) is to have two separate superimposed feeds, each fed from a separate video stream. This allows individual manipulation of each eye or both together, and it doesn't require any kind of preprocessing to put both in a single data stream.

Hey Mike... I may be misunderstanding, but RealD is no different from a post-production perspective in this case. The RealD system takes two individual streams and combines them. It then feeds a single image stream to the projector. On the front of the projector, a linear polarizer is fitted and synchronized with the box on the back-end and the shutter so that the correct polarization filter is placed with the correct flash. That's also what allows relatively cheap linearly polarized glasses to be used.

Only reason I know this stuff is because I've got customers doing live client-attended work with RealD and both the Christie and Barco.

The only trouble with dual projection is that it is notoriously sensitive and difficult to keep in convergence and calibration. The upside is that comparitively, it's really easy to set up, has double the lumens, and for 2D viewing, you don't have to constantly flip up and flip down the RealD shutter.

Although two projectors are great for brightness on very large screens, most theatrical 3-D digital cinema exhibitions so far have used a single projector with the RealD "Z screen" attachment.

True - but keep in mind that the RealD system is more than just the screen attachment - it is also the processor at the back end taking dual streams and combining to one.

Regarding RealD, they still use a frame rate of 24fps, but each frame is alternately "flashed" three times for each eye-view during the interval of any one frame, for a "flash pitch" (or interruption rate, as it is usually referred to) of a total of 144 flashes per second (six per frame for both eye-views)....

Most of the time, yes. But there are limitations. For instance, both the Christie2K and the Barco DP90 being fed 2048x1080 can only support double flash (96fps) instead of triple flash.

Stereoscopic 3-D monitors also exist that may be used for this purpose. Alternate line and alternate pixel polarization systems permit monitors that may be viewed with ordinary passive polarized (usually circular polarization) stereoscopic viewing glasses. These, in different configurations, are available through V-Rex, DDD, Arisawa, Samsung, Berezin, and probably others as well. These, however, all deliver only half-resolution to each eye-view, and have vertical angle viewing position restrictions.

The alternate pixel polarizer in the Samsungs are great... They are the first true consumer 3D display that works. Yes, they have some obvious limitations. But... what a breakthrough for typical client-attended sessions and review screenings!

Another option for post is the use of the StereoScope monitor, which has already been on the acquisition set for stereoscopic monitoring during production. This might also be useful during post. This monitor accepts dual discrete streams which may be viewed simultaneously with passive polarized glasses. Versions can be made with full resolution in each eye-view for any existing HD, 2K, or 4K format over a wide range of both horizontal and vertical viewing angles.

Hmm.... I am genuinely surprised at such a cool technology in stereoscopic viewing that I was completely unaware of. Do you have links to more information, John?

Lucas Wilson
------------
ASSIMILATE, Inc.
LA, CA, USA

 

[laguun]

The alternate pixel polarizer in the Samsungs are great... They are the first true consumer 3D display that works. Yes, they have some obvious limitations. But... what a breakthrough for typical client-attended sessions and review screenings!


...
Hmm.... I am genuinely surprised at such a cool technology in stereoscopic viewing that I was completely unaware of. Do you have links to more information, John?

Lucas Wilson
------------
ASSIMILATE, Inc.
LA, CA, USA

hello luki.
sorry, to be such a insinsting and demanding possible client.

i have overheard several speeedgrade trashtalking at your booth this year.
not too professional, im my hunble opinion.
gunter knobloch (and others) of assimilate invited me to see a redcode version of your product.
the presentation was cancelled.

back to topic: 3d on consumer displays is standard.
the samsung isn´t polarized.
at least not the ones i saw.
the systems at speedgrade where shutter-based, not polarized.


finally i would like to know: assimilate scratch looses all secondary color correction if its running 3d?

 

[Lucas Wilson]

hello luki.
sorry, to be such a insinsting and demanding possible client.

i have overheard several speeedgrade trashtalking at your booth this year.
not too professional, im my hunble opinion.

I was not at IBC, and did not hear the conversations. I'm sorry if you were offended. There is a fine line between strong competitive discussion and "trash talking," and it's easy to misinterpret. You should hear the comments about how other vendors were "trash talking" us. It's a trade show, man... what do you expect?? : )

gunter knobloch (and others) of assimilate invited me to see a redcode version of your product. the presentation was cancelled.

Gunter Knobloch does not work for ASSIMILATE. But regardless... what's your point? I explained in another thread that we did not get our REDCODE demo system running until the 2nd day. Starting on the 2nd day, we were booked solid. If you still are interested in seeing it, let me know. Or... you could also show up at Silverado Systems tomorrow where Torrey will be showing the entire workflow... Final Cut Pro, RED Alert, REDCINE, and SCRATCH - with native REDCODE support.

back to topic: 3d on consumer displays is standard.
the samsung isn´t polarized. at least not the ones i saw. the systems at speedgrade where shutter-based, not polarized.

I use the term "polarize" loosely because that's what Samsung calls it. The glasses are indeed shutter-based with an active emitter system.

finally i would like to know: assimilate scratch looses all secondary color correction if its running 3d?

No.

Lucas
-----
ASSIMILATE, Inc.
LA, CA, USA