4K for the finish...

[Justin Barham]

Not true. I'm in the theater business (own my own five screen) and I know tons of theaters that opted from 2k servers as opposed to IMBs. Most 4K projectors in cinemas are showing 2K content from 2K sources. I expect that to change soon as the last date of install for theaters who signed VPF agreements is happening in stages throughout the rest of the year (Actually December 31st for Cinedigm, March 31st for Sony, April 30th for GDC, and September 30th for Christie). With subsidies for equipment ending and the remaining theaters who didn't meet VPF requirements for one reason or another and in desperate need of transitioning to digital, the cost of all these units is likely to see a significant drop.

Thanks for the info.

I wonder how many cases are 4K source > 2K server > 4K projector? Versus 4K source > 4K server playing 2K ("they probably won't even know the difference") > 4K projector?

 

[Blair S. Paulsen]

Let's start by finding out how many 4K DCPs of actual 4K source material have been created and sent out. Last I heard it was less than 30, ever.

As noted, it's also quite likely that on many occasions those 4K DCPs ended up projected at 2K due to projector or server limitations.

With the exception of the Taxi Driver re-release and couple of others, exhibitors haven't even made an effort to use 4K as a draw.

Logic suggests that at some point the exhibitors who can show 4K will decide to use that capability as a selling point to boost box office. At least here in California we are seeing more "premium" movie theater installations designed to service people looking for an experience markedly superior to what they have at home. Part of that is usually food and drink, think date night for adults, as well as a promise of a better moviegoing experience. Touting 4K would seem like an obvious differentiator for speciality venues, followed by the chains.

But that can't happen unless the number of 4K DCPs available increases significantly.

Note to Mark P., SMPTE is working with the DCI folks to expand the spec to add 400mb/s and 1gb/s options to the existing 250mb/s spec. As you noted, formats like S3D and HFR - especially when done at 4K, suffer when forced into a 250mb/s format.

Cheers - #19

 

[AndrewThomas]

I wonder how many cases are 4K source > 2K server > 4K projector? Versus 4K source > 4K server playing 2K ("they probably won't even know the difference") > 4K projector?

Probably not many of the former, given the comparatively tiny number of films released as 4K DCPs (Blair's 30 is about right).

 

[Justin Barham]

Probably not many of the former, given the comparatively tiny number of films released as 4K DCPs (Blair's 30 is about right).

According to this Sony 4k site, ten movies from 2012 were available in 4K DCP:

- Django Unchained
- Lincoln
- Skyfall
- Argo
- The Master
- Premium Rush
- The Dark Knight Rises
- Magic Mike
- That's my Boy
- Sport de Filles

Now, many of these are hugely popular films. I won't bother to total the combined viewership in the US (because I'm lazy), but it's safe to say that there were butts in seats. So 4K content doesn't seem to be the missing link. And we know that there are 16,000 4k projectors installed in the US.

What am I missing? I feel like Woodward or Benstein here.

 

[Mark L. Pederson]

Note to Mark P., SMPTE is working with the DCI folks to expand the spec to add 400mb/s and 1gb/s options to the existing 250mb/s spec. As you noted, formats like S3D and HFR - especially when done at 4K, suffer when forced into a 250mb/s format.

Cheers - #19

Blair -

I heard the exact same comment in 2008 when I made my first 4K DCP and complained about the bit-rate limit.

I'm not holding my breath for SMPTE/DCI.

That was five years ago.

 

[Mark L. Pederson]

According to this Sony 4k site, ten movies from 2012 were available in 4K DCP:

- Django Unchained
- Lincoln
- Skyfall
- Argo
- The Master
- Premium Rush
- The Dark Knight Rises
- Magic Mike
- That's my Boy
- Sport de Filles

Now, many of these are hugely popular films. I won't bother to total the combined viewership in the US (because I'm lazy), but it's safe to say that there were butts in seats. So 4K content doesn't seem to be the missing link. And we know that there are 16,000 4k projectors installed in the US.

What am I missing? I feel like Woodward or Benstein here.

4K DCPs:

Doctor Zhivago (1965)
30 Minutes Or Less
About Last Night
After Earth
Angels & Demons
April Showers
Arbitrage
Argo
Bad Teacher
Batman Begins
Battle Los Angeles
Bridge on the River Kwai
Burlesque
Captain Phillips
Casanova
Casino Royale
Che: Part One
Che: Part Two
Country Strong
Did You Hear About The Morgans?
Django Unchained
Eat Pray Love
Get Low
Grown Ups 2
Hancock
How Do You Know
Inception
Lawrence of Arabia
Lincoln
Magic Mike
Men in Black 3
Moneyball
No Good Deed
Ocean’s Twelve
Ocean’s Thirteen
Poseidon
Premium Rush
Priest
Quantum of Solace
Reach For Me
Restless
Revolutionary Road
RV
Salt
Skyfall
Spider-Man 2
Spider-Man 3
Stealth
Straw Dogs
Taxi Driver
That’s My Boy
The Assassination of Jesse James by the Coward Robert Ford
The Black Dahlia
The Bounty Hunter
The Da Vinci Code
The Dark Knight
The Dark Knight Rises
The Girl With The Dragon Tattoo
The Green Hornet
The Karate Kid
The Master
The Other Guys
The Sound of Music
The Smurfs 2
The Soloist
The Tree of Life
The Tourist
True Grit
X-Men Origins: Wolverine

 

[M Most]

Mark's list is probably accurate, but there are a lot of caveats when you're talking about these kind of things. Spider Man 2 and 3, for instance, were pictures in which probably 75% of the shots in the movie were touched by visual effects, all of which were rendered at 2K. Same with Hancock, which was as I recall the first of the 4K DCPs from Sony. Then there are pictures like Skyfall, which was primarily shot on Alexa using Arri Raw, and debayered to 2K during the DI. So for people here who want to be "purists," take that list and any other current one with a fairly large grain of salt, at least at this point in time.

 

[Mark L. Pederson]

Mark's list is probably accurate, but there are a lot of caveats when you're talking about these kind of things. Spider Man 2 and 3, for instance, were pictures in which probably 75% of the shots in the movie were touched by visual effects, all of which were rendered at 2K. Same with Hancock, which was as I recall the first of the 4K DCPs from Sony. Then there are pictures like Skyfall, which was primarily shot on Alexa using Arri Raw, and debayered to 2K during the DI. So for people here who want to be "purists," take that list and any other current one with a fairly large grain of salt, at least at this point in time.

And there are also films not on my list, like JAWS - that were scanned and remastered in 4K for their BluRay release - with 4K DSM (DPX) files being archived for future re-release. Universal alone remastered 13 films in a row to 4K for BuRay and archive that are not on this list.

 

[Blair S. Paulsen]

Let's start by finding out how many 4K DCPs of actual 4K source material have been created and sent out. Last I heard it was less than 30, ever.
Cheers - #19

I did specify 4K source material in my comment, as in some cases the 4K DCP was merely considered a better container due to multi-format issues/etc. I've even heard rumors that some projects subbed in 4K shots for wide landscapes and simply upscaled everything else. I like the idea that one could manage upscaling filters per shot and include native 4K in a show that had worked in a 2K post path until the final turnover to finishing/mastering. Not that very many people would spend the money... hehe, but kludge is definitely spoken in Hollywood.

Maybe i should see if native4Kordeath.com is available... ;-)

Cheers - #19

 

[Justin Barham]

I did specify 4K source material in my comment, as in some cases the 4K DCP was merely considered a better container due to multi-format issues/etc.

Maybe. It seems that quite a few of those listed originated on film. I'd certainly consider them worthy if they were scanned and finished at 4K.

I like the idea that one could manage upscaling filters per shot and include native 4K in a show that had worked in a 2K post path until the final turnover to finishing/mastering. Not that very many people would spend the money... hehe, but kludge is definitely spoken in Hollywood.

Maybe i should see if native4Kordeath.com is available... ;-)

OK. Just a quick PSA here. Nothing is native 4K in editorial before turnover. I assure you that not a single film listed above was cut in anything higher than 1080. Not a single one. In fact, quite a few of them were offlined in standard def. And that's important to Red fans here. Why? Because if one had to cut at 4K, nobody could reasonably do it. There wouldn't be a single 4K mastered film worth watching. Offline editing: this is a fundamental principal of long-form editing, and therefore inherit to the process of cinema. It actual permits us to finish at higher that 2K resolutions. Not understanding this, and talking about professional post, would be like talking about cinematography and not buying the need for lights -- thinking they're just old-fashioned . It's that amateurish. But it goes on here on RedUser all over the place. Don't be that guy. Because now you know better.

Just FYI.

 

[Blair S. Paulsen]

uhh... thanks?

uhh... thanks?

Justin. I assure you I am aware of the nature of the offline/online editing process. Perhaps in my quest for brevity I wasn't clear. My note concerned the opportunity to do essentially an addendum after creation of a 2K DCDM with 16bit TIFFs, typically the end of the line prior to creation of the DCP. You are, of course, correct that until the conform stage elements exist in a creative editorial stage where proxy files are commonly used.

What I was referring to is the possibility that in a program like Assimilate Scratch one could create a Construct (version) that brought in all the practical photography (typically 2K 10bit log DPX image sequences), VFX and other elements as referenced by the EDL/XML/ALE files. After grading/finishing one could render out that Construct as 16bit TIFFs in xyz at 2K for the DCDM. Then, if one so desired, one could do a second conform in a 4K Construct where one uprezzed some elements and replaced others with 4K DPXs (OpenEXR perhaps?) and make a second discrete deliverable at 4K, that mixed native and uprezzed elements in a 4K container.

I never meant to imply that hero media was needed or even wanted for most creative editorial operations.

BTW, while there are a lot of folks in the RedUser community who don't know what they don't know, your language is unnecessarily rude. I would also point out that the RU community includes some extremely well informed and experienced folk, not just noobs.

Cheers - #19

 

[M Most]

Universal alone remastered 13 films in a row to 4K for BuRay and archive that are not on this list.

Well, yes. And so has Warner Bros., Sony, Disney, Paramount, and just about every other studio. But archival and restoration projects are not what was being referred to here, at least that's my interpretation. What was being discussed is modern pictures released theatrically on a 4K DCP. Hence the list you provided, and my subsequent comments.

 

[Justin Barham]

Justin. I assure you I am aware of the nature of the offline/online editing process. Perhaps in my quest for brevity I wasn't clear. My note concerned the opportunity to do essentially an addendum after creation of a 2K DCDM with 16bit TIFFs, typically the end of the line prior to creation of the DCP. You are, of course, correct that until the conform stage elements exist in a creative editorial stage where proxy files are commonly used.

What I was referring to is the possibility that in a program like Assimilate Scratch one could create a Construct (version) that brought in all the practical photography (typically 2K 10bit log DPX image sequences), VFX and other elements as referenced by the EDL/XML/ALE files. After grading/finishing one could render out that Construct as 16bit TIFFs in xyz at 2K for the DCDM. Then, if one so desired, one could do a second conform in a 4K Construct where one uprezzed some elements and replaced others with 4K DPXs (OpenEXR perhaps?) and make a second discrete deliverable at 4K, that mixed native and uprezzed elements in a 4K container.

I never meant to imply that hero media was needed or even wanted for most creative editorial operations.

BTW, while there are a lot of folks in the RedUser community who don't know what they don't know, your language is unnecessarily rude. I would also point out that the RU community includes some extremely well informed and experienced folk, not just noobs.

Cheers - #19

In that case I apologize to you. I saw "a show that had worked in a 2K post path until the final turnover to finishing/mastering" and started seeing red (no pun intended). Obviously in your case I was mistaken, and you were referring to a further "turnover to finishing/mastering" after conform that I wasn't until now aware of. My bad.

The RedUser community certainly has it's share of highly experienced, intelligent, members. I respect and appreciate that. Still, I can't help but be frustrated at some of the grievous misinformation I see here regarding editorial practice. And not in some newbie, anxious to learn perspective; but rather a pervasive, arrogant attitude about how I should perform my job. Sadly, the misinformation is starting to take hold in the lower (lowest?) end of the feature world. And the last couple years have seen me spending way to many nights and weekends correcting Red dailies incorrectly prepared for editorial because somebody read here that you should edit 4K Red natively, and all kinds of other nonsense.

I'm sorry for coming across as rude. I hereby end my personal crusade to educate RedUser members as to the value of offline media.

 

[Joachim Hoge]

In that case I apologize to you. I saw "a show that had worked in a 2K post path until the final turnover to finishing/mastering" and started seeing red (no pun intended). Obviously in your case I was mistaken, and you were referring to a further "turnover to finishing/mastering" after conform that I wasn't until now aware of. My bad.

The RedUser community certainly has it's share of highly experienced, intelligent, members. I respect and appreciate that. Still, I can't help but be frustrated at some of the grievous misinformation I see here regarding editorial practice. And not in some newbie, anxious to learn perspective; but rather a pervasive, arrogant attitude about how I should perform my job. Sadly, the misinformation is starting to take hold in the lower (lowest?) end of the feature world. And the last couple years have seen me spending way to many nights and weekends correcting Red dailies incorrectly prepared for editorial because somebody read here that you should edit 4K Red natively, and all kinds of other nonsense.

I'm sorry for coming across as rude. I hereby end my personal crusade to educate RedUser members as to the value of offline media.

Please don't. I for one wound appreciate any information that can ease my workload. I'm very interested to know how to prepare for a 4K finish. Up until now I mostly finished short stuff like TVCs and the like, but we have just started shooting an action sport film that will finish in 4K. Premiere and Resolve is the likely route.
Please let me know how to best go about it?

 

[Michel Hafner]

4K DCPs:

Doctor Zhivago (1965) Restored from 70mm to 4K DCP

Zhivago is a 35mm production. You can add "Lawrence of Arabia" which is a 70mm production.
And the 35mm "Bridge on the River Kwai".

 

[Mark L. Pederson]

Well, yes. And so has Warner Bros., Sony, Disney, Paramount, and just about every other studio. But archival and restoration projects are not what was being referred to here, at least that's my interpretation. What was being discussed is modern pictures released theatrically on a 4K DCP. Hence the list you provided, and my subsequent comments.

Well, yes Mike.

And the name of the thread is 4K for the finish - hence my subsequent comment about the fact that when the studios now remaster classic shot-on-film titles for HD BlueRay - they actually remaster and restore in 4K.

Which means if and when these titles are re-released in cinemas or on forthcoming 4K platforms, they are ready.

 

[Mark L. Pederson]

Zhivago is a 35mm production. You can add "Lawrence of Arabia" which is a 70mm production.
And the 35mm "Bridge on the River Kwai".

you are right - Zhivago had a 70mm blow-up. I corrected and added Lawrence and Kwai. Bridge on the River Kwai is such a great movie!

 

[Michael Brennan]

Originally Posted by AndrewThomas
Not true. I'm in the theater business (own my own five screen) and I know tons of theaters that opted from 2k servers as opposed to IMBs. Most 4K projectors in cinemas are showing 2K content from 2K sources.

Andrew,
what is the cost to upgrade a typical 2k server/projector to 4k?


Mike Brennan

 

[Axel Mertes]

Just over half of all the digital Screens in the US are now lit up by 4K projectors. Sony has installed 13,000 or so and Barco and Cristie adding a few thousand to round it out. As bank leases for projectors run out and projector prices falling like a rock, those numbers have been on a pretty upward swing. Of course... it is a limited market... only so much room for growth.

Last I checked there is about 40,000 screens in the US, 30,000 of those being digital.. and 16,000 of those 4k.

Jarred,

don't make a BIG mistake here.

Check with the number of Sony's how many of them are doing 3D.
A Sony SRXD equipped for 3D does show two 2K images side by side, and actually using only ~1/2 of the chips overall pixels, so its 1/2 half as bright as it can be in true 4K mode. So in 2K 3D mode you will definetly see far less than 1/4th the possible projection brightness, in 2K 2D you'll see around 1/2 the brightness.

Further, changing the lens to true 4K 2D display needs exchanging the lens, which needs at least half an hour I was explained, not including recalibration. Its not a revolver system. That all was with the RealD 3D system with the Sony's.

We had hard times to find any true 4K projecting theater in Germany, while we have found dozens or hundrets of Sony SRXD 4K equipped theaters. But they are using ONLY the 2K 3D lens system. They don't even have the 4K lenses at hand (one theater with 4 Sony's had 1 lens, still unpacked, never used, after 3 years).

So reading those screens are 4K is a total misconception. Most of the theaters never had a 4K screening either, or got hands on 4K content. In germany we had not a single release of 4K content on a big movie ever. Most Sony's don't even have enough disk space to keep a 4K master on them without throwing out most of the other shows, which is a very limiting factor in projection systems. I would not have believed this if I would not have seen it myself, talking to projectionists, staying in the projection room.

As the heads behind FinalDCP we have some understanding of what is happening out there...

Just pointing this out.

Cheers,
Axel

 

[M Most]

Well, yes Mike.

And the name of the thread is 4K for the finish - hence my subsequent comment about the fact that when the studios now remaster classic shot-on-film titles for HD BlueRay - they actually remaster and restore in 4K.

Which means if and when these titles are re-released in cinemas or on forthcoming 4K platforms, they are ready.

In that case, I would also point out that in all of these studios, restoration projects are also commonly producing film separation masters as the actual archival element. The digital elements are used for current deliverables such as any theatrical play and BluRay, and are also used in some studios to source IMF masters for current HD and other deliverables worldwide. But the archival need is usually filled by the film seps, because in today's world it is still the most effective archive method.