4K Finishing Folly

[Tom Lowe]

Ah, gotcha! Do you have any 2K or above video to fire up on those badboys? I guess there really isn't much video around at 2K or up.

 

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Ah, gotcha! Do you have any 2K or above video to fire up on those badboys? I guess there really isn't much video around at 2K or up.

Well, I do most of my 3D animation at 1920x1080 these days. All the video I shoot myself is 720p (HVX200). I can shoot 1080p with the HVX, but there isn't really any true resolution gained with that system by doing so. In some ways there, some not. I also have some 1080 HDV source material to work with. As for 2K film/video, don't have any to work with here.

I went with the dual 30" because it gives me tons of room to work with my 3D applications and other tools I run. Very handy, but for now, there isn't a whole lot of advantage in terms of video editing other than some more screen real estate. But nothing that couldn't be just as good with dual 24" displays.

 

[david farland]

You know, I just bought me a new Dremel grinding tool.

Next I'm gonna buy 3 of those Dell 3007WFP-HCs, grind off the borders, and stick 'um portrait style for my 4.8k x 2.5k monitor!

DF

 

[Tom Lowe]

Well, I do most of my 3D animation at 1920x1080 these days. All the video I shoot myself is 720p (HVX200). I can shoot 1080p with the HVX, but there isn't really any true resolution gained with that system by doing so. In some ways there, some not. I also have some 1080 HDV source material to work with. As for 2K film/video, don't have any to work with here.

I went with the dual 30" because it gives me tons of room to work with my 3D applications and other tools I run. Very handy, but for now, there isn't a whole lot of advantage in terms of video editing other than some more screen real estate. But nothing that couldn't be just as good with dual 24" displays.

Well, for now.

After that thread about 4K transfers, I am thinking I will post-produce my timelapse short I intend to shoot this summer at 2k this fall. The res from the DLSR camera is basically 4K, so the downsampled 2K post should look really nice, I suppose. So a 30" Dell would come in handy for that, I guess. Adobe After Effects, as far as I know, does 2K (and 4K), so I guess as long as my video card can drive 2k to the Dell 30", I can do post for that 3-minute timelapse vid at 2k and use a 30" Dell to monitor my timeline output, right? I have a GForce 7900GTX. Not sure if it can output over 1920x1080?

Forum member Mike said I could transfer a three-minute 2K short to 35mm for around $850, which I could probably afford. I'd love to see my work projected on 35mm at a little festival or whatever.

 

[Jeff Kilgroe]

The 7900GTX will drive a 30" dell no problem. In fact, even though it's now one generation behind, it's still a very fine video card. Actually faster than the Quadro FX4500. It just lacks a few special features of the workstation card. It also only does a Dual-Link out of the primary DVI port, so you can only drive one 30" display at full resolution. Your second DVI port would be limited to 1920x1200 if you were to run two displays.

 

[Tom Lowe]

The 7900GTX will drive a 30" dell no problem. In fact, even though it's now one generation behind, it's still a very fine video card. Actually faster than the Quadro FX4500. It just lacks a few special features of the workstation card. It also only does a Dual-Link out of the primary DVI port, so you can only drive one 30" display at full resolution. Your second DVI port would be limited to 1920x1200 if you were to run two displays.

I think one 30" would do the trick. I own a 24" Dell (my precious...) now and I am very happy with it, for my NLE view. If I can add a 30" for my 2K output view (and probably my on-set HD monitor shooting on Red), and if it works, yeah, cool!

 

[Joel Kaye]

Forum member Mike said I could transfer a three-minute 2K short to 35mm for around $850, which I could probably afford. I'd love to see my work projected on 35mm at a little festival or whatever.

A friend of mine just did a 1080P to 35mm transfer and he thought the digitally projected 1080p original looked better than the 35mm transfer... which sorta makes sense because that's the digital original. He might have gotten a crummy transfer though.

I saw his digital projection at 2k and I thought it looked sharper than most movies I see projected on 35mm film. I think by the time film gets to a podunk theater with scratches on the print, a bulb that's not bright enough and anything else that can go wrong you probably end up with something far degraded from that original 35mm neg.

Anyway - don't get your hopes up about a 35mm being something monumental. Digital projection might knock your socks off though.

 

[Poi Boy]

film is so done.... we so seldom see the perfect film experience because there are so many possible pitfalls that degrade the maximum projection. Digital has a much better chance at peak performance; five to ten years and film is done.
Aloha
-A

 

[Tom Lowe]

A friend of mine just did a 1080P to 35mm transfer and he thought the digitally projected 1080p original looked better than the 35mm transfer... which sorta makes sense because that's the digital original. He might have gotten a crummy transfer though.

I saw his digital projection at 2k and I thought it looked sharper than most movies I see projected on 35mm film. I think by the time film gets to a podunk theater with scratches on the print, a bulb that's not bright enough and anything else that can go wrong you probably end up with something far degraded from that original 35mm neg.

Anyway - don't get your hopes up about a 35mm being something monumental. Digital projection might knock your socks off though.

you might have a point. finishing in 1080p might be the best bet, for festivals.

 

[Joel Kaye]

film is so done.... we so seldom see the perfect film experience because there are so many possible pitfalls that degrade the maximum projection. Digital has a much better chance at peak performance; five to ten years and film is done.
Aloha
-A

Another friend of mine built a little theater in his basement. He had 8 really nice theater style seats - but MUCH nicer and bigger. He had digital projection and a killer sound system. I'm thinking it was only 60" or so projected because it was only 12 feet away or so.. but that was a great way to watch a movie. It's still kinda the group experience but more pleasant.

But about that group viewing experience everyone always talks about - I think comedies really shine there because laughter is contagious... but do you need to see most movies with a crowd?

 

[Poi Boy]

the group experience i really great; I occasionaly borrow a friends projector and set up a theater in my studio, about a 14' image on the syc wall..it is so much fun. I can imagine when 2k or even 4k personal projectors become a reality, what fun.
Aloha
-A

 

[Chris Kenny]

According to the calculator here, you apparently have to sit less than about 9' from a 12' image to actually see 4K resolution. You have to sit less than four feet from a 60" screen.

The upshot is, in plausible viewing situations, you simply will not see pixels with 4K. There isn't likely to ever be much demand to go above 4K for presentation, until people start getting cybernetic eye upgrades or something.

 

[GlennChan]

But about that group viewing experience everyone always talks about - I think comedies really shine there because laughter is contagious... but do you need to see most movies with a crowd?


IMO, campy/cheesy movies like Snakes on a Plane and Ghost Rider should be viewed with other people.

 

[Jeff Kilgroe]

I think one 30" would do the trick. I own a 24" Dell (my precious...) now and I am very happy with it, for my NLE view. If I can add a 30" for my 2K output view (and probably my on-set HD monitor shooting on Red), and if it works, yeah, cool!

Sounds good, although I don't know how well the 30" would work for an on-set monitor. It only has a single DVI-DL input. If you connect to a standard DVI interface, don't use a dual-link cable as it will confuse the display sometimes and you will be limited to 1280x800 resolution. To my knowledge, the monitor doesn't support very many resolutions directly (without having your computer's video card scale to the 2560x1600 output) and it doesn't support EIA/TIA style signals (HDTV). So you won't be able to use an HDMI to DVI cable for 720p display from RED. You could get 2K display from the SDI outputs on RED, but then you would need an appropriate dual-link SDI to DVI-DL converter and I'm not even sure if such a beast exists. I haven't ever seen one, but I also haven't tried to find one either. I'm sure it wouldn't be cheap...

 

[Bruce Allen]

Well, for now.
Adobe After Effects, as far as I know, does 2K (and 4K), so I guess as long as my video card can drive 2k to the Dell 30", I can do post for that 3-minute timelapse vid at 2k and use a 30" Dell to monitor my timeline output, right?

Yes, After Effects does 2K and 4K. It is used for this on a daily basis for finishing movie titles, trailer titles, etc (4K not so much though, I think I am one of the few who was ever asked to do 4K graphics). Also, its default 2K full-aperture preset is incorrect - 2048x1536 when it should be 2048x1556.

Forum member Mike said I could transfer a three-minute 2K short to 35mm for around $850, which I could probably afford. I'd love to see my work projected on 35mm at a little festival or whatever.

There are a million ways that filmouts can go wrong. I'd say that that will be the weak point in your image chain. If I were you, I'd be tempted to do 1920x1080 instead of 2k and spend a little time / money researching fllmout options.

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

 

[Bruce Allen]

Oh, and good luck actually loading more than a few seconds of footage into RAM for you 2K After Effects RAM preview. I will usually make lower-res JPEG-compressed Quicktime proxies in order to preview longer pieces of motion without dropping frames.

Bruce

 

[Lucas Wilson]

Yes, After Effects does 2K and 4K.
...
Also, its default 2K full-aperture preset is incorrect - 2048x1536 when it should be 2048x1556.

2048x1556 is created when scanning a 35mm frame with an open gate and *no* aperture.

2048x1536 is the active picture area created when a Full Aperture gate is placed on the frame.

Most of the industry does refer to 2048x1556 as "2K Full Ap." But technically, it is not - it's "2K Open Gate."

In this case, Adobe is correct and most of the industry is mistaken.

Lucas Wilson
------------
ASSIMILATE, Inc.
Los Angeles

 

[Bruce Allen]

Most of the industry does refer to 2048x1556 as "2K Full Ap." But technically, it is not - it's "2K Open Gate."

In this case, Adobe is correct and most of the industry is mistaken.

Awesome! Now I just need to convince all of those damn finishing houses in Hollywood that they don't need everything at that weird resolution.

Bruce

 

[Tom Lowe]

Oh, and good luck actually loading more than a few seconds of footage into RAM for you 2K After Effects RAM preview. I will usually make lower-res JPEG-compressed Quicktime proxies in order to preview longer pieces of motion without dropping frames.

Bruce

As far as I know, 2K Cineform Prospect HD intermediates edit perfectly on today's systems. Right now I'm not doing anything complicated enough to worry about the RAM preview thing, although it does raise some interesting issues for people trying to do effects at 2k or 4k. Editing wavelet 27MB/s on FCP or Premiere is one thing, trying to work with 4k footage and effects in After Effects is another, and I guess you are right that it could take a hell of a lot of power.

I wonder Cineform's codec or REDCODE will work inside of AE?

 

[Bruce Allen]

Current versions of AE cannot play back from disk. They must load frames into RAM. So, yes, as of the Mac beta, Cineform will "work" in AE (it would be read through Quicktime, previously it would work via Windows Media / AVI)... REDCODE will work if they write a Quicktime codec for it, otherwise you will have to transcode using REDCINE. But none of these will enable realtime playback of 4K without loading into RAM first. I'm sure this will change one day.

I'm actually doing graphics for another trailer at 2K right now... actually 2048x872 since they only want scope... that should be doable... let me see if it plays nicely... yup, looks like it does.

Bruce