45K to spend and request assistance

[Eric Watson]

Greetings Red User community!


Although I've followed a few dozen threads for several months, I'm new to the forum and I really enjoy reading the conversations.
I'd like to ask for advice/input from the seasoned "RED User" community that you are.


Here's the skinny.
I'll be buying a Red system soon. I'd really prefer to buy the Epic "Brain" but the only way I could get the awesome Dragon without waiting a year (or possibly longer) would be to purchase the Epic Carbon Dragon in which of course you know is 50K. I would've bought a slightly used Epic Dragon but they're far and few between. Not to mention, it seems like all the ones for sale are owners that're "waiting in line" for their Dragon upgrade.
Well, the recent announcement at NAB 2014 that Red Digital now has the option of purchasing the Scarlet Dragon might be an angle I could play. Hey, It's not an Epic but at least it'll have the new sensor and Dragon feature set, etc.


I need to prepare to use the camera system for shorts and feature length productions intended for theatrical release. Now, I've only got about 45K to spend. I'm pretty sure I'll have to reconfigure equipment that I have in order to meet the aforementioned requirement.


Here's what I have today.

Lenses:
Zeiss Planar 50mm 1.4 ZF
Zeiss Planar 85mm 1.4 ZF (love the focus throw, creamy BokeH, and resolution)
Nikon AIS 180mm ED
Nikon AIS 135mm
Nikon AIS 105mm 2.5
Nikon AIS 105mm 2.8
Nikon AIS 50mm 1.4
Canon EF Zoom 28-135mm - Likely wouldn't use on Dragon config.

These are all Full Frame so they'll certainly cover up to 5K but I do realize that I'll need to invest in cine lenses such as a Zeiss CP.2 set but anywhere I can shave some dollars would be great. I'd like your input on which lenses could stay and which need to go. I understand that glass is king so I want to get as much bang for my buck as possible. I might even whip out the credit card for right glass.

__
Editing/Post:
For workflow, I have two beefy 64 bit systems that sport Adobe Creative Suite 5 with Premiere & After Effects to do my heavy lifting. Each system has uses SSD on the OS, a 5 Terrabyte RAID for production, and I archive every dozen or so projects.
__
Alright, so I know to start with this link: http://www.red.com/armory
but kind of uncertain as to what might be the best startup config for what I'm trying to accomplish.



I haven't purchased anything yet, but I'd like to solicit your thoughts.
What say you fellow Reds? How would you configure your system given the constraints?


Thanks in advance!

 

[Phil Holland]

Things you'll want to do:

- Move on and upgrade to Adobe CC.
- Outfit the Red camera of your choice with approximately 4 REDMAGs. Personally I like the 256GB (and soon 240GB) REDMAGs, though I might be upgrading to the 512GB Mini Mags in the near future.
- You can interface with the camera via the 5.0" LCD Touch, which is a good bang for your buck as a display and camera control device.
- You'll want the REDMAG Reader. I use the USB 3.0. PC guy over here.
- Personally I'd go with V-Mount Batteries (RED BRICKS or other) and the appropriate battery plate you desire or the REDVOLT XLs, which are honestly better for travel work. Features stress the battery up time a bit more as most of the day the camera is on, so you'll want to be able to satisfy that demand.

That should be enough to get you up and rolling. Outfitting the camera with a Top Plate and a Top Handle w/ SWAT Rail is really common and useful in handling the camera.

Heh. Buy a 35mm prime

 

[D Anderson]

I saw someone selling an unopened Brain and they suggested the warranty could be transferred. I was told by BS rep remaining warranty is NOT transferable.

Bear that in mind when valuing cameras and don't believe seller if they say it can be transferred.

 

[Eric Watson]

Things you'll want to do:

- Move on and upgrade to Adobe CC.
- Outfit the Red camera of your choice with approximately 4 REDMAGs. Personally I like the 256GB (and soon 240GB) REDMAGs, though I might be upgrading to the 512GB Mini Mags in the near future.
- You can interface with the camera via the 5.0" LCD Touch, which is a good bang for your buck as a display and camera control device.
- You'll want the REDMAG Reader. I use the USB 3.0. PC guy over here.
- Personally I'd go with V-Mount Batteries (RED BRICKS or other) and the appropriate battery plate you desire or the REDVOLT XLs, which are honestly better for travel work. Features stress the battery up time a bit more as most of the day the camera is on, so you'll want to be able to satisfy that demand.

That should be enough to get you up and rolling. Outfitting the camera with a Top Plate and a Top Handle w/ SWAT Rail is really common and useful in handling the camera.

Heh. Buy a 35mm prime

Good points...and Yeah, I agree on the Adobe CC to certain degree. Technically though, will CS 5 not work with Red's codecs?

 

[Eric Watson]

I saw someone selling an unopened Brain and they suggested the warranty could be transferred. I was told by BS rep remaining warranty is NOT transferable.

Bear that in mind when valuing cameras and don't believe seller if they say it can be transferred.

Yep. You're right, when I spoke with one of the Bomb Squad guys they told me the same thing. Only that they'd do a service check on a camera and give me a 90 day warranty upon a clean bill of health for a $100 fee.

 

[Phil Holland]

Good points...and Yeah, I agree on the Adobe CC to certain degree. Technically though, will CS 5 not work with Red's codecs?

CS5 doesn't have the added benefit of some of the GPU enhancements that have happened in CS6 and CC. Also there are new GPU enhancements just shown at NAB that further speed up the workflow. Additionally, there's have been pretty big advancements in Premiere Pro, After Effects, and Media Encoder since CS5.

I don't necessarily want to open the argument about subscription versus purchasing outright in this case. I'm more focused on having access to the most modern tools to help get the job done more efficiently and with the creative freedom I desire. Honestly, the CC model is actually much cheaper than the previous yearly upgrade cost I had to endure so it works for me.

Even more honestly...... I use Adobe products damn near everyday of the week to make a living. That subscription fee I pay every month allows me to work. I'm a bit critical of the model as well, but it has been a good deal and there's been several updates to the entire CC suite since it's been released. Normally they would have charged for those upgrades and also they wouldn't have come as often. A good example was the Premiere Pro CC patch they released during NAB for the new Dragon OLPF/Calibration files. If anything this has earned Adobe some major street cred in my book.

 

[George Butterfield]

I haven't purchased anything yet, but I'd like to solicit your thoughts.
What say you fellow Reds? How would you configure your system given the constraints?


Thanks in advance!

Buy a used Epic Scarlet and shoot a feature film using 4K HD setting at 23.98fps. Sell that film and buy an Epic Carbon Dragon. Keep the Scarlet.

 

[Mike P.]

George has the right idea.

 

[Eric Watson]

Buy a used Epic Scarlet and shoot a feature film using 4K HD setting at 23.98fps. Sell that film and buy an Epic Carbon Dragon. Keep the Scarlet.

Hi George.
The new color science (Dragon) is what I'm after. From what I've seen and from all the reports, the images are phenomenally better...even more-so than that of the Epic Mysterium.

 

[Eric Watson]

Things you'll want to do:

Outfitting the camera with a Top Plate and a Top Handle w/ SWAT Rail is really common and useful in handling the camera.

Heh. Buy a 35mm prime

In the case of Adobe CS5 moving to CC, I'll probably move forward with Creative Cloud based on what I've researched since your last post.
Thanks Phil.



What do you think about my current lenses? I definitely concur with your suggestion to move on to Primes.
I mean, I like the 35mm still lenses I work with today (especially my Zeiss) as they produce nice crisp images/videos for my clients but I know they won't cut it for the big screen. I've got mad skills and I'll do whatever it takes to capture rich imagery for theatrical. Lenses can get on up there in terms of cost, but I'm wondering if I should go Superspeeds or is there a better option where I can get more for the investment. Using a sweet set of lenses to capitalize on the Dragon's offerings only makes good sense.

 

[Michael Tiemann]

You are absolutely going to need a real tripod and fluid head. You might also find you need sliders, dollies, etc. Easy to spend $10K on a fairly minimal kit.

You are also going to absolutely need a lighting kit. I'm sure you've read the "Dragon noise confirmation" thread, wherein we learn that if you shoot using available tungsten lighting, the 2800K color temperature is the equivalent of turning up the gain on the blue channel by about 2.5 stops, so if you are shooting at ISO 800, the blue channel is going to give you noise like ISO 5000. On the other hand, if you light with daylight-balanced sources, then ISO 800 is ISO 800, and then it's just a matter of being honest with yourself about how much light you really should be feeding the sensor at ISO 800. Which is more than you think. Easy to spend $10K on a fairly minimal kit.

Without good support and good lights, your lenses and your sensors are going to be very disappointing. And not only for DRAGON; any video camera is going to miss the Cine mark without good support and good lighting.

 

[Marc Wielage]

Without good support and good lights, your lenses and your sensors are going to be very disappointing. And not only for DRAGON; any video camera is going to miss the Cine mark without good support and good lighting.

And let's not even start on audio... hmy:

 

[D Anderson]

And let's not even start on audio... hmy:

or the script.

 

[Eric Watson]

And let's not even start on audio... hmy:

or the script.

Ah yes, of course. These are certainly important. I think I've got those bases covered...
For this post I'm mainly concerned with camera config and lenses that will best serve for theatrical as it relates to the Dragon seeing that I've never owned a Red.
Likely will shoot 4K or 5K.

Thanks!

 

[Will Keir]

I could get the awesome Dragon without waiting a year (or possibly longer) would be to purchase the Epic Carbon Dragon in which of course you know is 50K. I would've bought a slightly used Epic Dragon but they're far and few between. Not to mention, it seems like all the ones for sale are owners that're "waiting in line" for their Dragon upgrade.

No one is interested in selling their Dragons? Must be a premium that would lure some out. Say, what 40-42k?

 

[Will Keir]

Take what Mr. Holland has to offer with a grain of Will Salt.

You could move on to Adobe CC, but honestly Premiere crashes far too often. Auto save 5 minutes, it's useable, has a great media manager and can edit R3Ds. But then your stuck with YEARLy subscriptions which cannot be canceled without penality. So your at 600 a year for your editing software. What is better? Maybe FCP X if they can add a decent media manager.

The 256GB's are good if you can get them used at 1300 each. They used to be 2600 and there are users that want the latest and have already got their ROI. GL with that hunt. I'm probably pissing off a few here but hey, I have the 256 GB and that's the price we pay.

I'd use the 5" LCD has a secondary monitor and for functionality. 5" is just not enough to pull focus by eye if that's your things, which most new users tend to gravitate towards.

Batteries... I'm afraid the coolaid has been drunk. The industry uses ABs. They are multifunctional, powering monitors, steady cam rigs etc... and they are easy to rent if your out of your home base. V locks... why? Yes, you do get better reading tools on the monitor, such as time before depletion. I've been through this choice, started with RED Bricks and RedVolts, much happier with ABs. Plus, have the TM4 Quad simultaneous charger. A little more than an hour, all four batteries are charged. I believe the AB gold mounts have a stronger hold as well and with the viewfactor quick plate, you don't have a battery sticking out above the top plate

Things you'll want to do:

- Move on and upgrade to Adobe CC.
- Outfit the Red camera of your choice with approximately 4 REDMAGs. Personally I like the 256GB (and soon 240GB) REDMAGs, though I might be upgrading to the 512GB Mini Mags in the near future.
- You can interface with the camera via the 5.0" LCD Touch, which is a good bang for your buck as a display and camera control device.
- You'll want the REDMAG Reader. I use the USB 3.0. PC guy over here.
- Personally I'd go with V-Mount Batteries (RED BRICKS or other) and the appropriate battery plate you desire or the REDVOLT XLs, which are honestly better for travel work. Features stress the battery up time a bit more as most of the day the camera is on, so you'll want to be able to satisfy that demand.

That should be enough to get you up and rolling. Outfitting the camera with a Top Plate and a Top Handle w/ SWAT Rail is really common and useful in handling the camera.

Heh. Buy a 35mm prime

 

[Zeb B]

Buy a used Epic Scarlet and shoot a feature film using 4K HD setting at 23.98fps. Sell that film and buy an Epic Carbon Dragon. Keep the Scarlet.

Naw dawg . . . spend $15 on this first:
http://www.amazon.com/Rebel-without-Crew-23-Year-Old-Filmmaker/dp/0452271878

 

[Brian Merlen]

yesterday i wrote a super long response, but a crash lost it all so i'm gonna just try to bullet point this

1 i am very happy to talk about products, but whats your incentive to own instead of rent if you don't mind me asking?
2 if high speed isn't needed a scarlet is fine and thats a huge cash saver
3 get insurance, Kat Wong at Athos comes highly recommended here generally speaking and I like them
4 if you get an epic, buy a used scarlet instead. then upgrade it...get a year warranty then on the epic...not a bad stepping stone
5 if your sold on dragon would you consider a scarlet dragon if the frame rates don't matter?
6 out of curiosity with so many cheaper 4k solutions today on the horizon, whats your attraction specifically to red products? i love them don't get me wrong but if its really hard for you to budget for it couldn't a cheaper camera permit better lensing options? at these price points i am not sure if you want to skimp on support gear just to have a red, as wonderful as it is...cuz for a dragon unless your willing to settle for a scarlet dragon its going to be cutting your budget mighty close unless you wait for dragon x to be sold to the public, or buy mx and do the upgrade program? carbon and M dragons just look like too much of a budget killer in this situation to me
7 have you at least ran the math on rentals vs owning? i can't imagine owning is cheaper, what kind of shoot schedule is it and are you sure your clients will make the leap to the much more pricy and better quality stuff if the plan is to own and then market the stuff on all your other gigs? not to be a debbie downer i am just saying its kind of a lot of coin to be throwing around unless your positive the transition will work. for me personally i had wanted the fixed lens red that wasn't released, simply to get a fairly good student camera. its been half a decade since then and although i love my camera, the reality is i may have over bought for my own personal needs. I'm just saying being bleeding edge is wonderful and the tool set is great, its just sometimes overkill i'd imagine for certain markets and unless unionized i really think its hard to sell super high end stuff on clients from my own missteps. there are plenty of flawed but "good enough" tools available on the market, and to be an arri or red owner op i think its important to just realize what your getting into. i see my own situation, and have a buddy in LA struggling with an Alexa. the whole "if you build it they will come" theory is a flawed concept in my own experience.. so growth is important but you may want to at least consider slow sustained growth rather then immediately jumping into spending so much cash.
8 rental houses will book their first born for a week on a 3 day rate in todays economy, at the very least go to one, talk to people, get your hands on the stuff and see what your into, in addition to whatever your reading here.
9 okay back to the fun stuff: i think if you need dragon FF coverage you should consider at least consider cheap entry level cine glass. and entry level cine really isn't cheap relative to nikkors. your still talking a hefty commitment financially into schneider full frames, cp2s, canon cine, something that can cover, but still this isn't exactly affordable. for a complete set your still spending a fortune is the reality, but your paying for good mechanics, at least better mechanics then using say cine modded still lenses, or cheaper glass like rokinon cinema lenses... some people have told me to mod a set of leica stills before i buy cheap cine lens tho. so far i never bought any, its a big commitment and i need to think it through. the cheap stuff won't book like the expensive stuff, so i kind of just wait and bide my time now for a legitimate set
10 manfrotto 504 or something along those lines ain't so bad...you don't need to spring for expensive support gear either like arri branded stuff, but don't go so low end your follow focus explodes on a shoot, or you pull your sticks straight off your tripod... the latter of which actually happened to me on some really bad manfrotto set that apparently has been recalled and i never heard. this was on a DSLR gig, that goodness, and i didn't drop the cam, but a leg falling off in front of a client on some shitty bar shoot is not exactly the look i am going for in my gear lmfao...so the problem is you gotta at least spend up a little all the way up on every silly piece of the kit..certain things are hard to get cheap as a result, sticks that can hold a moderate amount of weight, follow focus that is durable, filters that are good. the reality is unless your going to cut corners it adds up very very fast... light kits... why isn't the producer booking the stuff for you? why is it your responsibility to drop so much cash, is it a passion project? i'm just wondering more details? because that probably would help the discussion, my primary concern is overbuying and overselling yourself on things that are so high end its really beyond your budget and needs is the thing
11 would you consider a heavy retro zoom if it could save substantial money on your glass budget and still give you access to an angie, or cooke, or something that historically was used on big budget productions? primes are great and all, but do you really need the speed for your work and the hassle of on set lens changes and all the subsequent stuff that will go along with it if you don't spring on decent support gear? silly thing like having a matched form factor on your glass housing can make or break your days. so unless your willing to deal with that, I'm just warning now on the implications. also do you have a DIT for the shoot? support for a red on the data side is nothing like the cameras you may have used before, so it helps me if you let us know what other high end cine stuff you work with.
12 i can pretty much promise cutting r3d files full res in 4k or 5k is not necessary for your needs, so don't try to budget for this. an offline online reconform workflow is how the big guys don't file for bankruptcy, and its for a good reason, which is technology changes too fast these days. once upon a time people bought a steinbeck or a 35mm cinema camera that LASTED A CAREER. this is a different world man! being an owner op in this world kind of blows. in fact the only reason i bother at all is since you can upgrade the red system... i see too many people, and productions getting burned by marrying the cow when the milk is a one day rate for a 3 day weekend...or a one month rate for your entire 4 month film shoot... so despite what people say here don't psyche yourself out into blowing too much cash. a super computer alone and rocket and massive storage and color accurate monitors and capture card to send the signal out ends up being a crazy portion of your alotted budget. so i am warning you right now please at least consider your total costs of investments into the entire ecosystem because frankly i can see no way of getting this done without cutting some corners here and there. i have tried to advise you in corners that i think can be cut and still result in quality work and this is by no means an insult to your ability to work the gear, perhaps more so a reflection on my own difficulties? i think being an owner op has an element of luck no matter your skill set, the game is no longer rigged in our favor, glass ain't gold if it doesn't cover sensors, the times are a changin'
13 consider red armor, all cameras brick regardless of branding and that insurance you buy will not cover this, its a serious owner op liability regardless of branding of your camera. no insurance covers wear and tear and Athos is about as good as it gets is what people tell me..
14 you don't want to be known as a one tool set guy, buying one camera that is super over budget will set you up to be this guy. you don't necessarily want to be this guy if your clients want an f55 or a c500, or a flex4k on that shoot. you could try so hard to book your camera or lenses or whatever that it turns people off. this is a risk in being an owner op that can't afford to own many many tools. something to at least consider
15 with no time table for your Dragon sensor that can be 100 percent but your life on it guaranteed is it really best to plan your shoot around a tool that you very well could not have access to? seems like your potentially setting yourself up with this one, i am sure red will roll them out faster and faster but your at the back of the line of a ton of people who have been waiting already. i am not sure you want to commit to having a dragon in time when none of us can make that commitment without getting a carbon. its really great that unlike competitors red allows a premium line for buyers who simply must have it. but guys like you and I certainly cannot buy a carbon outright easily, without financing of sorts...
16 have you considered financing, if you really have this much cash in hand and a solid business plan, go for broke, buy the best tools in the world and pay them off over 7 years or whatever... with this much for a potential downpayment id buy the carbon, and f*cking alexa as a B cam bro
17 get the mini mags, the speed increase and size duration will more then make up for the costs due to on set time, esp if your not planning to have a qualified on set wrangler... i've seen reds shot, and i've seen reds SHOT. the latter is with a HUGE crew (or at least a few people). so the mini mags can help you at least mitigate costs by outsourcing guys like me if you can get away with it, but its kinda hard to remember what take and pull focus and light at once, costs ballon and not just on gear side but on labor side as well

 

[Brian Merlen]

i had more but apparently i have FINALLY hit the maximum post size LOL!!! and it wiped it, ugh i'm over it i'll try again some other time...i've apparently made so many mistakes on my own that i feel like an expert advisor on how to fail as an owner op! maybe there is a market for this? "how to not buy a red package, the trials and tribulations of an entry level owner op"? LMFAO...its a good tool, but having a good tool and good business plan is two very different things. idc if you have 100 dragons if you can't work them for premium dollars they are paper weights is the reality, same with arri's and flex4ks, and anything, master primes. you must get them off that shelf for them to matter at all, the utility is all that matters... its not that tech specs couch watching (which i do a TON of) that matters...its the booking it that matters, its all that matters really and passing on the costs the more you spend will only get harder and harder..much safer to limit your liability as often as possible

ps keep in mind if i'm coming off a little jaded its simply me trying to advise you that the market conditions can be dramatically different then initial upbeat hopes. i just don't know if i want to stay in the owner op game, i'll continue to shoot my tools forever, but as for keeping up the with the joneses and getting your ROI in time to do so as technology changes "whats hot" in camera land only FASTER AND FASTER, seems like a recipe for disaster in general. its gotten to the point where I cynically like camera delays, anything to slow the march of progress and producer trends and milk anything off existing tech!

 

[Zeb B]

i had more but apparently i have FINALLY hit the maximum post size LOL!!! and it wiped it, ugh i'm over it i'll try again some other time...i've apparently made so many mistakes on my own that i feel like an expert advisor on how to fail as an owner op! maybe there is a market for this? "how to not buy a red package, the trials and tribulations of an entry level owner op"? LMFAO...its a good tool, but having a good tool and good business plan is two very different things. idc if you have 100 dragons if you can't work them for premium dollars they are paper weights is the reality, same with arri's and flex4ks, and anything, master primes. you must get them off that shelf for them to matter at all, the utility is all that matters... its not that tech specs couch watching (which i do a TON of) that matters...its the booking it that matters, its all that matters really and passing on the costs the more you spend will only get harder and harder..much safer to limit your liability as often as possible

ps keep in mind if i'm coming off a little jaded its simply me trying to advise you that the market conditions can be dramatically different then initial upbeat hopes. i just don't know if i want to stay in the owner op game, i'll continue to shoot my tools forever, but as for keeping up the with the joneses and getting your ROI in time to do so as technology changes "whats hot" in camera land only FASTER AND FASTER, seems like a recipe for disaster in general. its gotten to the point where I cynically like camera delays, anything to slow the march of progress and producer trends and milk anything off existing tech!

When writing super long posts - write them offline in a word processor then copy/paste into the forum