3D DI Theater advice

[Tim Whitcomb]

Been hearing all kinds of "pitches" about 3 D projection in post.

New 1 projector solutions that use "active" (yuck) glasses - or a Dolby processor that allows a single Barco to project 3D to a white (non silver) screen?

Ive heard from a prominent DI authority whom I wont name yet (UK) who firmly states that 2 Projectors with Linear Polarizers and a Silver Screen is the ONLY way to get COLOR ACCURATE post in 3D

And goes on to say that everything else is just a " sales gimmick" and has massive color shifting and inaccuracies that are not suitable for post.

So Im curious what people on here are using in a DI environment?

thanks in advance as its a lot of $ to invest. 1 projector versus 2 is more affordable but not if its not suitable for top 3D post work

 

[M Most]

Ive heard from a prominent DI authority whom I wont name yet (UK) who firmly states that 2 Projectors with Linear Polarizers and a Silver Screen is the ONLY way to get COLOR ACCURATE post in 3D

And goes on to say that everything else is just a " sales gimmick" and has massive color shifting and inaccuracies that are not suitable for post.

So Im curious what people on here are using in a DI environment?

I don't know of any DI theaters in any major DI facility in Los Angeles that utilize 2 projectors. The majority of them use either a RealD Z-screen system, a Dolby system, or Xpand (active glasses, often used in studio screening rooms but not widely used in DI theaters). Aside from Sony Colorworks, nearly every major facility I know of is using 2K DLP Cinema projectors.

The notion of "color accurate 3D" is a misnomer in itself, because there is no completely universal standard viewing system. The best you can do is target the dominant system, which in the US is RealD. If one wants to argue theory that's fine, but reality is that the studios expect to see what they will see in a theater.

 

[Tim Whitcomb]

Thanks M, thats what I heard from the Barco rep.

So what are the differences between Real D and Dolby 3D which uses a processor between the system and the projector? They are both passive systems but Dobly lets you work with a white screen (again according to Barco rep)

thanks!

 

[Fabricio Morato]

Hi,

the RealD uses a circular polarization so you can separate each eye, and you need a silver coated screen to preserve this polarization (one eye is clock wise the othe anti-clock - sorry don't know if this is the correct english term). The Dolby system uses a wavelength multiplexing (you can think of a very complex anaglyph system - it's licensed from INFITEC) and you can use on a normal screen. The RealD glasses are less expensive (disposable) and the Dolby ones are more expensive (they have more than 20 layers of filter coats and tint - so you need to re-utilize them).
And the Dolby system gives a little color difference in each eye.

Hope this helps a little and sorry for the short answer but I'm on a rush right now.

 

[Tim Whitcomb]

For clarification.

We are 90% 2D house... who wants to offer 3D DI in the future in our theater. Right now we work on a plasma and an LCD.

I also need micro perf for mixing as our Theater doubles as a 5.1 mix theater

 

[Mark L. Pederson]

For clarification.

We are 90% 2D house... who wants to offer 3D DI in the future in our theater. Right now we work on a plasma and an LCD.

I also need micro perf for mixing as our Theater doubles as a 5.1 mix theater

Barco + Dolby - get the Barco Post Software - it is awesome. I would not buy until NAB. We used MIT (http://www.movingimagetech.com/) for our DI theatre and all things Barco.

 

[M Most]

For clarification.

We are 90% 2D house... who wants to offer 3D DI in the future in our theater. Right now we work on a plasma and an LCD.

I also need micro perf for mixing as our Theater doubles as a 5.1 mix theater

Fabricio's reply is right on the money.

You already partially answered your own question by inferring that a silver screen is not practical for you. The Dolby system works well. A few years ago the trend was towards separate grading and unique DCPs for the different systems due to slight color and brightness differences, but that has largely changed and today for almost all but the largest 3D features, one universal DCP is usually shipped and for the most part, this is sufficient to provide a reasonably accurate viewing experience across all systems.

 

[mikeburton]

RealD is the standard as Mike pointed out but from what I've seen Dolby is better 3D viewing and again, doesn't require a silver screen. For this reason alone I would go Dolby. Also, I don't think you can purchase RealD just rent (I could be wrong here that's what I've heard.). I would go 2K Barco plus the Dolby 3D wheel which will give you accurate 2D monitoring as well. High gain screens such as a silver screen have many issues for 2D work but with Dolby you can go with a Stewart Snowmatte 1.0 gain screen for example with both 2D & 3D.

 

[Tim Whitcomb]

RealD is the standard as Mike pointed out but from what I've seen Dolby is better 3D viewing and again, doesn't require a silver screen. For this reason alone I would go Dolby. Also, I don't think you can purchase RealD just rent (I could be wrong here that's what I've heard.). I would go 2K Barco plus the Dolby 3D wheel which will give you accurate 2D monitoring as well. High gain screens such as a silver screen have many issues for 2D work but with Dolby you can go with a Stewart Snowmatte 1.0 gain screen for example with both 2D & 3D.

thanks Mike B. THIS is what I wanted to hear actually as I can also make our sound mixer happy because the Snomatte is available in micoperf.

@ Mark P. Thanks also for the notes. Barco + Dolby IS what I was looking at ... but in the UK they tend to prefer dual system (2 projectors) because thats what worked... despite it taking forever to adjust those and make them right
and the double cost

EDIT: Mark Im already working with Bevan and Jerry at movingimage who thanked you for the plug!

EDIT 2: At M Most and Fabricio and Mark B. - my DI friend in the UK also said the difference in each eye of the Dolby (color) are annoying in post. Are any of you spending 40 to 50 hours a week
doing 3D finishing? He agreed Dolby was SUPERIOR for exhibition but did not agree for post. Any thoughts? real world experience? who is color grading with the Dolby solution?

 

[Kirk Melby]

This is a RealD alternative that is available for purchase:
http://www.depthq.com/modulator.html

For mixed 2D and 3D use, check out Stewarts new 5D material:
http://www.stewartfilmscreen.com/commercial/materials/3d/silver5D_commercial.html

 

[Tim Whitcomb]

This is a RealD alternative that is available for purchase:
http://www.depthq.com/modulator.html

Interesting - how much? Yes, realD is lease only for $5K a year I think- this projector they make is only $2500
this does not look like pro gear but more consumer non-critical 3D. am I missing something?

For mixed 2D and 3D use, check out Stewarts new 5D material:
http://www.stewartfilmscreen.com/commercial/materials/3d/silver5D_commercial.html

This screen is more for exhibition and has too much Gain for 2D color critical work.

 

[Bruce Allen]

Hey Tim

Why no interest in active shutter?

Personally the Dolby color differences bug me very much. I see a lot of banding and color difference between eyes, etc. Probably just my own visual system though.

Xpand is used by some high-end exhibition venues. For example Arclight uses it for the Dome in LA (a problematic venue I know but 3D looks darn good on it). RealD works well (especially somewhere where they care - eg Disney's El Capitan or inside one of the 3D bays at Fotokem). Main issue is ghosting but at least you get an idea of potential problems when exhibiting across the many RealD screens in the US.

I'd go RealD if I could. Then take a look at active shutter?

Please take my opinion with the appropriate grains of salt, especially when weighed next to the more informed opinion of the pros who posted before me

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

 

[mikeburton]

thanks Mike B. THIS is what I wanted to hear actually as I can also make our sound mixer happy because the Snomatte is available in micoperf.

We have a 147" Stewart Screen in our DI Theatre here in Sacramento in the SnowMatte and I am very happy with it. Does the microperf on the Snowmatte screen make it less reflective ie less than 1.0 gain? Depends on the size of your room/screen but I'm sure if you are going with a Barco DP2K-12C or 15C you'll have plenty a' Lumens to hit the 15 FC mark with lamp to spare.

 

[M Most]

I'd go RealD if I could. Then take a look at active shutter?

The problem with using Xpand (an active shutter system) in a grading theater is that you may (or may not) have an annoying flicker from your control panel. This happens with Baselight Blackboard, don't know about Pablo Neo.

 

[Pedro Guimaraes]

personally I'm not a big fan of dolby especially for color since I noticed that when you turn your head it can affect color rendition......not sure why.

here's my .02 cents and experience on this subject.

My stepfather (James LaViola) is a Quantel Pablo colorist and 3D specialist. He has colored and conformed countless 3D projects. He was tasked awhile back in upgrading his screening/projection room at his facility.

After meeting with and testing many systems both projector and 3D systems (dolby,real-d,expand) considering...budget considerations and client considerations....

His room now has a Christie 2k CP2000M DCI Complaint projector onto a Stuart Snowman color correct screen (13') using the Expand 3D system. All running off a Pablo 4k system. It's a smaller room with 12 seats...and the DI desk.

I have seen many of the 3D projects I have been involved with...Si-2k, Red, Alexa, EX3, F35, 35mm and IMAX and I can assure you that the color rendition and resolution is astounding. Brightness is also very good. You can sit at the back of the room and compare against the waveform and the desktop color monitor and the accuracy and rendition of the colors is amazing.

Christie sends out a technician whenever he requests it to re-calibrate and ensure the color stay where they supposed to. Usually at the beginning and middle of every big project he works on.

A huge part your missing in this equation that you haven't talked about is the SCREEN! The screen is vitally important!

The other 3D projector/color suite I have been very impressed with is the one at IVC/point .360 in Burbank. I think they using a 4k sony projector......$$$$$ also they had a CUSTOM built screen with very precise specs. I know for a fact that they also color off that screen and projector. I saw IMAX shots of Baraka and was very impressed with the quality of the projection....

My suggestion is test, demo every room and facility has different requirement and there are certainly many differnt options out there (as you may be finding out).

Maybe the best is to visit as many DI (3D) room as possible and see with your own eyes the diffrence between each setup.

 

[Tim Whitcomb]

@Bruce I personally cant stand active shutter glasses (kills my brain/eyes after 20 seconds) most colorists I know also abhor active shutter glasses. (and dont get Jeff Kilgore going on Panny Active wear)

The color issues are tantamount concerns imho... so Im curious what Most says about this in a DI environment. Mark P. is successfully using Barco + Dolby in a DI enviro.

Pedro, exellent points. NAB is very close, seeing with my eyes is great advice, thanks Pedro.
The DGA and Motion Picture Academy have chosen Dolby ($?) who knows.
RealD used publicly traded stock and options to get REAL3D out to more theaters.
and the glasses are cheap. I found it fine in the Regal Cinema I saw it in vs Imax 3D
no discernable difference.

I am definitely looking at all the options at NAB as I have much construction left to do.. just got soil samples done to verify stress of slab. Time to start digging and then pouring the slab. Will document

 

[Tim Whitcomb]

Still waiting for the UK contingent to chime in who should be up and at em about now...
The more opinions the better. What are people using out there successfully for 3D POST.

NOT Exhibition, but high end color correction, I/O, convergence control etc. i.e. for Heavy Iron 3D post
BEcause so far the world of 3D post seems best put by Old Gregg from Mighty Boosh.
"Wanna go to a club where people wee on each other?"

 

[M Most]

BEcause so far the world of 3D post seems best put by Old Gregg from Mighty Boosh.
"Wanna go to a club where people wee on each other?"

To quote the WOPR, sometimes the only good move is not to play.

 

[Eric Lange]

Been hearing all kinds of "pitches" about 3 D projection in post.

New 1 projector solutions that use "active" (yuck) glasses - or a Dolby processor that allows a single Barco to project 3D to a white (non silver) screen?

Ive heard from a prominent DI authority whom I wont name yet (UK) who firmly states that 2 Projectors with Linear Polarizers and a Silver Screen is the ONLY way to get COLOR ACCURATE post in 3D

And goes on to say that everything else is just a " sales gimmick" and has massive color shifting and inaccuracies that are not suitable for post.

So Im curious what people on here are using in a DI environment?

thanks in advance as its a lot of $ to invest. 1 projector versus 2 is more affordable but not if its not suitable for top 3D post work

For about six years (or more) I have been using a 10ft, Harkness Hall silver screen, with dual projectors and Linear polarizers. I much prefer the cleaner crisper look of linear polarization to the fuzzier or muddier look of circular. It still amazes me that the Lenny Lipton Z-screen bolted onto a digital projector gave birth to digital in cinema s-3d.

Maybe I’m being stupid or ignorant; if the final “output” is with a RealD system should it not be the case that grading should be made with the closest approximation of that system? What I’m saying here is that if you grade for Real-D using a linear polarized dual projection system then you might leave the colors and contrast more muted than you really want to, when your output is played in the cinema through a real-D system. Or to put it another way you are going to want “amp” things up a bit for Real-D if you are using a linear polarized system to grade on.

If it’s just a case of making the best looking on screen imagery that is comfortable to work with, then I personally much prefer the look of linear passive than just about anything else. [I do spend a lot of time with LCD shutter glasses, and I would say for long working hours, that is a little inhuman; if you want to be psychovisually nice to your employees, then, linear passive….

You can rig pretty stable mounts for dual projection so there is very little fiddling about.

How much are you looking to spend on such a systems and what screen size are you after?

Cheers,

Eric

 

[Corrado Silveri]

I'm really happy using a dual projection system (projectiondesign) + linear pola + stewart screen + a simple Lut dedicated to 2D works.

Just my two cents.