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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

3cP vs Speedgrade Onset

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Dustin Cross

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I am interested in adding 3cP or Speedgrade Onset to my DIT kit, but not sure which I should get. What do other Red DITs here use?

3cP looks interesting because it has some kind of file management and outputs color data to send to color suites.

Does Speedgrade Onset have similar export and workflow capabilities?


Thanks,
Dusty
 
3CP has more options for DITs / DPs on-set. I would use speedegrade on-set to make Luts but its not good for anything much more then that.

3cp is a much better tool for DITs/DPs to verify data back ups, CDL profiles, Dailies, SMS messaging, Thee best Color Chart for reference, and lastly automation to any email or IP. Just ask Brooke Willard who uses's 3cp on "Southland". Its a must have. I'm using it on my 3D Red Feature for a "Bollywood" Company.

Don't get me wrong I love Speedgrade and recommend it for any LUT generation its just not a complete package like 3cp is for the DIT.

I use it for my Phantom jobs too:)
 
While I haven't used 3CP yet I know quite a bit about SpeedGrade. From 3CP's specs and the fact that people use it on a daily basis it seems to be targeted to experienced DITs who look for an app that streamlines the backup-workflow on set and also works as a comprehensive colour previsualisation kit for cinematographers.

SpeedGrade On Set is colour previsualisation only. Because it incorporates all colour manipulation tools of the bigger brothers it is very powerful. SpeedGrade is all about colour and can be used very delicately (endless colour layers, crossed gradings, etc....).
 
I use both Programs for my jobs as DIT and as DP. Speedgrade is pure for Color, you open Footage on a still frame base ( you can select which frame in the clip you open, but you can´t do a playback in OnSet) and manipulate colors to your taste. What i love about it is the support for the wave panel in the 2009 version, which is a lot more intuitive than manipulating colors with mouse ore trackpad.
You can export a jpeg and tiff reference file and send it together with a 3D LUT to the Grading Facility. That´s what speedgrade offers, so it´s a bit more targeted to DPs.

3cP is great for data management and Dailies creation, but i don´t like look generation without a 3 trackball interface, that´s what i´m missing the most. In all other aspects it´s great for DIT´s and i got it mainly because of the upcoming RedRocket support, which will get you Dailies done couple of minutes after the wrap.
As long as 3cP won´t support Wave panel, I´ll use Speedgrade for Color Gradind and hope i can export a 3D LUT to 3cP but i didn´t try that yet, and I´m not sure if 3cP can import LUT files.

best regards
Manuel
 
I was testing both this past weekend.

I was testing both this past weekend.

I was just going to start a thread with the exact same topic! and hoping Dane and Brook would chime in. Good job, Dustin!

From my limited testing, I love Speedgrade's UI and the fact that it can be interfaced with a 3 trackball panel. That it doesn't allow for motion playback in the grade is a no go for me. I've had too many shots that required playback to see the light change throughout the shot to get a real feel. To grade on a still, especially one you have to choose before importing, is severely limiting.

3CP is a different beast. Having only used the demo, which restricts some important features like project saving, look/reference still saving and transcoding. I would love to test it with those features. That being said, the set up is nice, although I'd love another colour grading interface option similar to Speedgrade's, especially with a control panel option. But I do like the layout, with two screens you can choose source, result, split screen, reference and a few others. But being platform agnostic is a big plus, seems like you can pretty much output LUT and Look files for all the major finishing suites. Makes it easier than trying to get the lab to conform to one software. Also, I'm hoping, will guarantee the integrity of the look through the whole chain (more of a challenge than it should be, but hopefully the industry will settle down into more of a flow with how to deal with LUTs and look files). The other part of 3Cps user interface that is a bit of a prickle is certain controls such as Kelvin, exposure and other Red Alert/RSX specifics are only accessible through a dialogue window, and you can only see the effects in a small image preview. I personally like Kelvin and exposure accessible with the rest of the controls so I can tweak them in concert. Perhaps something that can be changed for the next version.

Some things about the demo which I'm hoping are not the same in the retail version, as I am heavily leaning towards buying 3CP. Perhaps Dane and/or Brook can let me know about these issues:

RED Rocket™™ Integration: having a hard time seeing decent playback, where it works flawlessly with Rocket Cine-X. Nor can I get it to assist in transcoding. in fact I couldn't get the software to transcode at all.

Full Screen Playback: doesn't make the image go fullscreen, just places the same size image in the middle of the screen with the rest of it black. And it's a still image that won't playback. Hitting any key returns it to the normal layout.

Curves: the contextual menu never seems to pop up. Also I'm having a hard time being able to delete control points even though it is selected and I hit delete and backspace.

Media Backup: couldn't get the media back up to work either (demo restriction?)

Anyway, 3CP has many amazing features and seems very well thought out. I feel if it offered control panel support it would only solidify it's deserved position to reign supreme on set.
 
One More Thing to Dane or Brook

One More Thing to Dane or Brook

I have found the use of a DSC chart invaluable in colour grading on set. Do either of you use the Gamma Density chart?
 
I've yet to find a reason to use a chart with 3cp, but the shows I've used it on are such that a chart is not appropriate anyways. Not a chart guy in general, though.
 
Cool, Thanks Brook! I was thinking of continuing to use R3D Data Manager as it is a well featured application. How do you find the Red Rocket Integration in 3CP?
 
Morning Glory said:
I was just going to start a thread with the exact same topic! and hoping Dane and Brook would chime in. Good job, Dustin!

From my limited testing, I love Speedgrade's UI and the fact that it can be interfaced with a 3 trackball panel. That it doesn't allow for motion playback in the grade is a no go for me. I've had too many shots that required playback to see the light change throughout the shot to get a real feel. To grade on a still, especially one you have to choose before importing, is severely limiting.
Click to expand...

SpeedGrade On Set is meant to discuss looks. It's a tool for the cameraman or director to explain hers/his look ideas to the team/client. You can also create LUT's that can be used in the final grading process. It is also useful to analyze your exposure, your choice of filters, etc.. In short, SpeedGrade On Set is meant to communicate colour. It's not meant to function as a grading solution for the Colorist, although many colorist own a copy.

Although the tools within SpeedGrade On Set are the same you find in the DI versions it is not a grading application. Please bare in mind that SpeedGrade On Set is priced for the private owner, a working cameraman/director for instance and not as an enterprise postproduction tool.

For proper on set grading you not only need an meaningful app. but also hardware such as a Cinetal monitor and at least a Tangent Wave plus a workstation with a raid system, not to mention a skilled colorist. If this is the case you've got the budget for SpeedGrade DI/XR or Assimilate Scratch anyway.

Hans
 
Software decisions for the Data Management Tech

Software decisions for the Data Management Tech

I suppose it depends on what you mean by "proper" or "meaningful". I've been a DMT for 2 years now. I've worked on 4 Features, 4 MOWs, 1 MiniSeries, and dozens shorts, music videos and commercials and all but one show I've timed the dailies. Always to the satisfaction of the DP, using only red alert or redcine. In the indie world after timing I would either create the dailies or train the assistant editor to do so. In the Union world I have sent it off to a lab, with mixed results. Sometimes I have to bring the director and producers to my set up to show them how their footage should look, as they have MAJOR complaints about the DVDs they are getting from a third party, who always has bigger, more expensive facilities, more staff and more time than me on set. So I'm investigating ways to make it more fool proof to maintain the integrity of the DPs vision throughout the post chain.

Speedgrade On Set, Like I said, has a great User Interface, but grading stills seems very limiting, considering free apps allow you to grade motion. Even 3CP which is in the same budget range allows for motion grading. I would HAPPILY shell out the $20, 000 for Speedgrade XR if I could see a decent ROI. I could only see that happening if I was hired for full dailies creation, which is happening here and there, but most Union show stick with the labs they have relationships with, which is fine with me, as long as the dailies look the way they do when the DP signs off them with me.

My current set up is a Mac Tower, with RED Rocket™™ and the Eizo CG241W, calibrated with coloreyes and a DTP94. I have compared the cinetal and the Eizo side by side and colour and contrast wise I see very little difference. Video engineers from these big labs say the same thing when they've visited me on set. Yes, the Cinetal has the 10bit colour depth which is very pleasing to look at and if I could justify the expense to a producer I'd love to have, but any editor using Avid or FCP is going to be editing 8 bit, so I'm not sure what the point of grading dailies in 10 bit would be. As I said before I'd love to add a trackball control panel to my set up, as I do think it will add efficientcy and important functionality to my kit, but I've also managed fine for two years with out it, so I will add it when the time is right. My set up costs around $30, 000, so adding Speedgrade XR for another $20, 000 would be adding 66% more cost to my set up (oh yeah, and I would have to purchase meta render to create the dailiess!). I would not be able to add that to my rental price. Not exactly budget minded.

I'm not asking for cheap software, I am more than happy to pay for software and hardware that will serve it's function with ease and efficiency, and as this is a business, pay for itself and generate profit.
 
Morning Glory,

if you have a copy of FrameCycler, full motion playback is a button click away. Just click on the FrameCycler button in the SpeedGrade OnSet GUI. You can also render your sequence from FrameCycler, resample etc.

Lin
 
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