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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

32 & 64GB 90MB/s CF cards, now were talkin'...

I remember when the Red Store had a 64GB CF labelled as Coming Soon... they've said repeatedly that they have their eyes on the CF market, so I tink we can safely assume they know about, and are testing these cards.

That said, I really hope they'll adopt these ones. I'd love to get RC42 to a CF!
 
Doesn't RC42 already work with 16gb CF Cards?
 
charlesN said:
Hope RED will be testing these cards soon...I can't imagine why these wouldn't work...but they know best.
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Because there are lies, damn lies and statistics.

These cards may register the quoted speeds in some tests, likely burst writing where only a [prime] portion of the card is used. It is totally different to the Red scenario where you are constantly dumping a load of data at a consistent, high rate, across all of the card.
 
One can hope! The needs of the Red are different then that of the digital photog so it may end up being a no-go as with all of the other cards ... I'm still hoping- 32GB for under $500 - that sounds like a good price point to me. :)
 
As I understand it, the new cards arrive at RED and go through a series of intense testing to see if they can reliably record various RED formats. I've always got the impression that the standards are very high, meaning that if they don't work flawlessly, they are not approved. So even though the 8GB cards may have been a brand/model that was available in the open market, the RED branded cards had to go through some serious QC before they got the RED branding. The 16GB cards that were on the open market, failed quite often and that is why RED went ahead and developed their own, which again had to meet intense criteria before being allowed out of the building. I would assume the same now holds true for 32GB and 64GB cards. They are going through the same criteria checks, and won't be approved and Red Branded unless they work flawlessly with the camera. As Red has pointed out, a lot of times the specs don't live up to the needs of motion capture. So, despite the fact that they read well on paper, real world tests at 24fps and Redcode sometimes prove otherwise.

That's my understanding anyways.
 
Can we get an update on these cards from Red?
 
The cards just came out so chances are they aren't done testing them yet or they might not even have them in their workshop.
 
Its also worth remembering that performance can differ between examples of the same card.For RED to feel comfortable certifying the cars, i would imagine that a decent spectrum of cards must be tested.
 
64GB x600 is a serious leap forward. You have to know that 100GB + is the next step.
 
Steve Sherrick said:
As I understand it, the new cards arrive at RED and go through a series of intense testing to see if they can reliably record various RED formats. I've always got the impression that the standards are very high, meaning that if they don't work flawlessly, they are not approved. So even though the 8GB cards may have been a brand/model that was available in the open market, the RED branded cards had to go through some serious QC before they got the RED branding. The 16GB cards that were on the open market, failed quite often and that is why RED went ahead and developed their own, which again had to meet intense criteria before being allowed out of the building. I would assume the same now holds true for 32GB and 64GB cards. They are going through the same criteria checks, and won't be approved and Red Branded unless they work flawlessly with the camera. As Red has pointed out, a lot of times the specs don't live up to the needs of motion capture. So, despite the fact that they read well on paper, real world tests at 24fps and Redcode sometimes prove otherwise.

That's my understanding anyways.
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Karl Gustav H. said:
Its also worth remembering that performance can differ between examples of the same card.For RED to feel comfortable certifying the cars, i would imagine that a decent spectrum of cards must be tested.
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Seems to me we should be allowed to do some testing, evaluation and decision making on our own. Yet, AFAIK we are locked out on anything but 2k.

I have several other camcorders that use flash memory and all they specify is class 6 or above - they don't tell me which ones I can use. At that point it is between me and the card manufacturer if there is an issue (so far there haven't been any).

RED started out with 8gig 300x cards - there are cards from major (the same?) manufacturers that are not only higher but double that, yet we are still locked out from even trying/testing. I'm not asking RED to certify them - they can save certification for their own cards or whatever they are totally comfortable with and those could be the ones used in truly mission-critical applications like big budget movies and those that require that for production insurance.

Although I don't think it should be necessary, I would be willing to sign a waiver or acknowledgment of accepting liability to have firmware versions that the only difference is that it doesn't lock us out of using these cards at higher resolutions at our own risk.
 
The bottom line is we need cheap 16gb cards and new 32gb cards asap, like yesterday. If Red doesnt have the capacity to prioritize that testing (unsure of their manpower) i'd hope a special build would enable user field testing.

I BADLY need 16gb cards but wont buy the $500 16gb as I believe that should go any day now. I'd pay $200 for a 16gb and $500 for a 32gb, provided both support 4.5k @ RC42 and max framerates at 2k
 
That and I hope the new SSD options allow Red Ram to go to about $1500, the component prices seem to support this idea.
 
Shawn Nelson said:
The bottom line is we need cheap 16gb cards and new 32gb cards asap, like yesterday. If Red doesnt have the capacity to prioritize that testing (unsure of their manpower) i'd hope a special build would enable user field testing.

I BADLY need 16gb cards but wont buy the $500 16gb as I believe that should go any day now. I'd pay $200 for a 16gb and $500 for a 32gb, provided both support 4.5k @ RC42 and max framerates at 2k
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I'll second that. :)
 
Shawn Nelson said:
The bottom line is we need cheap 16gb cards and new 32gb cards asap, like yesterday. If Red doesnt have the capacity to prioritize that testing (unsure of their manpower) i'd hope a special build would enable user field testing.

I BADLY need 16gb cards but wont buy the $500 16gb as I believe that should go any day now. I'd pay $200 for a 16gb and $500 for a 32gb, provided both support 4.5k @ RC42 and max framerates at 2k
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RED has sold at least 4000 cameras (maybe a lot more) - that's $80 million - so they should be able to afford a person just to do card testing - if it is too much for their existing personnel.

I agree with your assessment of prices I'd be okay paying for RED special cards. And I would be fine paying the much higher prices for RED's if they really are that much better (what are the specs on RED 16GB?). But being locked out of being able to test and compare alternatives, I'm not comfortable - it just doesn't feel right.
 
Michael Hastings said:
RED has sold at least 4000 cameras (maybe a lot more) - that's $80 million - so they should be able to afford a person just to do card testing - if it is too much for their existing personnel.

I agree with your assessment of prices I'd be okay paying for RED special cards. And I would be fine paying the much higher prices for RED's if they really are that much better (what are the specs on RED 16GB?). But being locked out of being able to test and compare alternatives, I'm not comfortable - it just doesn't feel right.
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Although I agree, on that I would love cheaper solutions. I would not assume RED's operating costs. 18K times 4000 cameras is 72million. We cant guess at what it cost to produce the products or operate the company. We are also assuming that they don't already have a person to does just that test out different CF cards or other types of media. I'm just saying I would not assume anything. Based upon my understanding, these new cards might be 64GB at 600X but that does not mean that they can run at that speed all the time and who knows how empty they need to be to run at that speed. You may find that after 8gb its down to 300X then at 16GB well under 300X. I could be wrong but, All I'm saying is that we should assume nothing.
 
Darren Orange said:
Although I agree, on that I would love cheaper solutions. I would not assume RED's operating costs. 18K times 4000 cameras is 72million. We cant guess at what it cost to produce the products or operate the company. We are also assuming that they don't already have a person to does just that test out different CF cards or other types of media. I'm just saying I would not assume anything. Based upon my understanding, these new cards might be 64GB at 600X but that does not mean that they can run at that speed all the time and who knows how empty they need to be to run at that speed. You may find that after 8gb its down to 300X then at 16GB well under 300X. I could be wrong but, All I'm saying is that we should assume nothing.
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First off all, the most important point is that if we weren't locked out, I/we could test for ourselves and we wouldn't need to have this discussion.

Not to be argumentative, but this is a discussion forum so in the spirit of discussion I would respectfully disagree that "We cant guess at what it cost to produce the products or operate the company"

In fact, analysts do this very reasonably all the time. First, you can get a reasonable estimate of operating costs by knowing the size of the building and number of employees. As far as product costs you can estimate that several ways. There are normal manufacturing margins and you can adjust them a bit by knowing the type of product, market size, how much is off the shelf components vs. custom, etc.. So you can work downward from the sell price just from knowing the normal margins.

Then you work upward by adding up the ballpark component prices and see if the two come close - and some back of the envelope figuring suggests that they do.

In terms of adding up component costs the Redone itself doesn't seem that complicated: off the shelf FPGA plus some custom circuit boards for power supply, LCD/control switches board, audio circuit board, video i/o circuit board, and disk storage/CF interface plus the fans and metal case - most of that is fairly normal stuff that is done on thousands of industrial products every year so ballpark pricing is not that hard to come up with. You need some good software/hardware engineers but other than Graeme with the REDCODE/Color science stuff i don't think you need any real geniuses.

Mysterium is a custom sensor, but even there people get those kind of quotes regularly for military and industrial applications and while the best estimate for initial development might be as much as $1 million off I doubt if they would be $5 million off - and per unit costs can probably be estimated pretty well to where they wouldn't be more than $500 off - at most $1000 off. No matter how you analyze it I think you would find that there is a healthy margin between cost (including development amortization) and the $17,500 which is fine - I am happy to make Jim and all the red team richer and richer as long as they keep making good stuff.

My frustration is that my application in particular (but I think many others as well) needs higher capacity CF cards and I think there is a very good chance that these cards would work for it - yet RED locks me out of evaluating for myself AND has not offered a reasonable alternative.

I have been a longtime promoter, supporter, and paying customer of RED. That doesn't give me any right to dictate what products they should come out with or what to charge. But I do think it should give me the right (given that these are standard CF cards that don't pose any threat of damaging the camera) to test and evaluate these for suitability for my purpose.
 
There is no conceivable reason why Red would not make higher capacity CF cards available as soon as they possible could if they existed and actually worked.
 
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