3 weeks...

[Dean Harrington]

Nov. 5th is going to be a very crazy day. I bought an EX3 anticipating that the Scarlet wouldn't come out quickly. It was a good decision 3 years ago to do so. I wait with baited breath for what's coming and I believe it when Jim implies ... back orders for ever!

 

[brian hanson]

Damn. In a good way.

OK, so... framing my thoughts:

The Epic exists. It costs $28.000. No sense in making an other $20.000 camera.

So < $15.000 it is. That's about half the price of an Epic and probably OK lineup wise. But who is this camera for? 15 grand is not pocket change to most of us, and it's definitely PRO territory. Well, that is who RED is catering to, so all is good there. But if you are an established PRO making money to sustain your business, wouldn't you just as well buy an Epic? It might take a few months of work (or just a few days?) to make up for the extra cost, but it seems like a no brainer investment.

But more importantly: what could RED do to the Epic brain to cut its price in half? I'm turning this over and over in my head and come up with only few options. You can't really cut down on accessories because everyone will need a display and batteries and such, and you'd then only have to add this cost on top. No, the difference would have to be the brain itself. Hmmm. Let's start cutting!

No HDRx, no high frame rates, no super high quality (low compression) REDcode. Knock resolution down to 4k.

You'd end up with a 4k RED camera, S35 sensor, shooting 60 fps REDRaw. Lens mount of your choice. If you take that <------ , how would that hold its own among Sonys and Canons? (It would do very well)

Although it would "sort of" fit in the lineup, and not step on Epic owner's toes, it doesn't quite mach up with Jim's statements of late. I realize I trimmed the Epic down quite a bit, but how similar to the Epic can RED allow a $15.000 camera be? There's a reason the Epic-S isn't out or "just around" the corner. The proposed version was way too powerful and way too cheap.

Still... I feel that the $15.000 price point is a semi-weak market. These customers aren't paying a "Hollywood premium", but still demand a feature complete product. If you give them a good enough product at this price, it has GOT TO cannabalize the higher end products. I feel that RED is about making the best possible product. They've got that in the Epic. Epic is the real PRO camera.

You can't make two cameras and call both "best possible", UNLESS you target two different markets- or customer groups. To me $15.000 and $50.000 is the same group. But the $5.000 crowd is a different beast. And MUCH, MUCH bigger market.

So make a 2/3" camera. It would never be confused with the S35, and people "on the cheap" couldn't replace Epics with this. RED's challenge here is that in my opinion 2/3" can not really be pitched as a stills camera.

And: let's not fuzz over this, but the whole world is de facto turning towards larger sensors. It would seem illogical for RED to try and put a 2/3" sensor product into the $10.000+ market. Even if it's 3k. And once again, it would quite match Jim's statements.

Enter this:

4k S35 Brain, lens mount of choice, CF-module, onboard audio, only basic connectivity, 5.5" LCD, SideGrip, battery and charger. Price $7500.

This is the perfect camera for aspiring Pros. Base package is 4k@96-120 fps brain, but with CF-module you get 2k@60 fps. For full res and speed, go with optional (build to order) SSD. If you need HD-SDI and whatnot, buy the optional I/O module.

This would be a camera you could take home, charge and start to use (slap on a 50mm 1.8 mkII Canon for $30, if you want) . 2k and CF-module means no special graphics card, no 15 bay HD RAIDs to view a couple of minutes of footage.

4k S35 performs beautifully for both photos and film. Price point and performance would be a true sensation.

SUMMARY:

Needs to have

• S35, or bigger sensor (for motion and STILLS)
• 4k, or higher max res (for motion and STILLS)
• take "normal" lenses, e.g. Canon.
• Record to cheap media
• REDcode RAW that can be edited on a normal computer (through REDcine X)

well said, i agree completely. 15k is about my max budget so i'm really hoping that the brain alone is cheaper than that as a minimum slew of accessories(5" lcd, ssd module, 64gb card, batteries and side module) is going to run 5k.

 

[Phil Anderson]

I guess we'll find out in three weeks.

To be honest, I won't be surprised if the price for Scarlet is higher than the $6k Ted mentioned pre-tsunami. Much higher though (as in 20%) and there will be some disappointed faces.

As to the $15k Red Epic. I thought that's what Epic-S was? A scaled down version of Epic-X, for $12k (or so, base)? No?

 

[David Dennis]

"Things have already changed" = Price Increase.
"I can't wait to see where we end up." = We have no clue what we’re are doing. We’ll just make shit up after the Canon announcement.

Wow, that sure is a rude post.

I think it is fair to say that every camera RED has shipped has generally exceeded customer expectations by a wide margin.

So you're saying that they will just make stuff up after the Canon announcement? That is just plain wrong.

Will Scarlet have a price increase? Depends on what Scarlet is. One hint Jim put forth made me think there might actually be a price decrease. He told us we should watch even if we were not expecting to buy a camera. Why would you do that? Because he's at least thinking of building you something you won't be able to resist. Maybe his new manufacturing wiz figured out a way to make a cheaper Scarlet. We just don't know.

I am confident that if there is a price increase, there will be a corresponding specification improvement that will be overwhelming. That's how RED rolls.

RED's track record makes me want to give RED the benefit of the doubt. They've earned it.

D

 

[Andrew Huse]

It would be cool to see epic-x stage 4 on nov 3rd...

 

[Mark Andersen]

"Things have already changed" = Price Increase.
"I can't wait to see where we end up." = We have no clue what we’re are doing. We’ll just make shit up after the Canon announcement.

This post could also read "Ban me please"

Red doesn't make stuff up. They do however dream big and make those dreams come true.

 

[Mads Drøschler]

That kind of post will only increase in numbers.
Ive been monitoring this forum for years and only within the last couple of months has lowend value posts exploded by users with little to no posts. I can only fear what it will be like if the camera is affordable for main man. It will drown the quality posting completly and i fear some of the posters that ive had the luxury of reading will stop.
Ive seen it happen else where and its a pain.

 

[John Caballero]

After years of waiting it is absolutely a waste of time to speculate anything at this moment. Scarlet will be what it will be. What Red wants it to be. High priced, low priced. Whatever they want. If you can afford it buy it, if you can't afford it then move along. In business there is only one reality: making a profit with what you are selling. Especially these days, when an investment is as risky as a trip to a casino. I was here from the very beginning when Scarlet was first announced. In the middle of the discussion. Right in the center of all the excitement. Then the years passed by. There is only one thing to do now and that is just wait a little longer for the announcement , quietly reflecting if the dream camera we talked about for so long will finally make dreams come true.

 

[Jeffrey Loewe]

That kind of post will only increase in numbers.
Ive been monitoring this forum for years and only within the last couple of months has lowend value posts exploded by users with little to no posts. I can only fear what it will be like if the camera is affordable for main man. It will drown the quality posting completly and i fear some of the posters that ive had the luxury of reading will stop.
Ive seen it happen else where and its a pain.

Sad but true.

 

[Phil Anderson]

I hear you Mads. I think the currently quiet Scarletuser site where some 25 people seem to post is going to get overrun by dozens of "how to" threads by new users in about a month. Some will be practical questions, but most...

 

[Zeb B]

My bet: 3K sensor / 3K cost

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lk5EgP7BDmw

 

[Zeb B]

"Things have already changed" = Price Increase.
"I can't wait to see where we end up." = We have no clue what we’re are doing. We’ll just make shit up after the Canon announcement.

Wow, how did the unfiltered internet comments sneak in here?

I'll have to respectfully disagree with you mate. Having been in manufacturing most of my pro life I can say that the final design for the Scarlet has been locked down for some time in order to have any form of credible announcement on November 3rd. Looking at Ted's interview from last January (below link) it's hard to see anything big missing from the prototype. If they ship in January 2012 that's a year after having a working proto that looks pretty darn sexy. That's plenty of time to perfect the firmware and get the machines spun up for production. Looks cool and should be a good fit as B roll support for Epic.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZwVmKydHH-8&feature=related

Oh and . . . why is it every time someone says something stupid or critical of RED on this forum the word "ban" comes up? We're fucking visual artists that support the rights of anyone to express themselves without censorship . . . tru? And I don't think Jim, Jarren or Ted get their feelings hurt very easy.

 

[L. Langer]

Wow, how did the unfiltered internet comments sneak in here?

I'll have to respectfully disagree with you mate. Having been in manufacturing most of my pro life I can say that the final design for the Scarlet has been locked down for some time in order to have any form of credible announcement on November 3rd. Looking at Ted's interview from last January (below link) it's hard to see anything big missing from the prototype. If they ship in January 2012 that's a year after having a working proto that looks pretty darn sexy. That's plenty of time to perfect the firmware and get the machines spun up for production. Looks cool and should be a good fit as B roll support for Epic.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZwVmKydHH-8&feature=related

Oh and . . . why is it every time someone says something stupid or critical of RED on this forum the word "ban" comes up? We're fucking visual artists that support the rights of anyone to express themselves without censorship . . . tru? And I don't think Jim, Jarren or Ted get their feelings hurt very easy.

"Disrespectful posts will not be tolerated." - Jarred Land

If that guy is who I think he is, then he has a long history of personal attacks against the company, it's employees, and it's products and is just being an asshat again.

 

[Zeb B]

"Disrespectful posts will not be tolerated." - Jarred Land

If that guy is who I think he is, then he has a long history of personal attacks against the company, it's employees, and it's products and is just being an asshat again.

If the Scarlet is the populist hit we all want it to be . . . there will be a fair amount of asshats coming to the forum party. If Scarlet is the legit little bro of the awesome Epic - then I say fuck 'em since the best way to win an argument is to be right to begin with. With the tough guy persona of RED it seems silly to get upset about what pinheads say on the internet from the safety of their Mom's basement. Let them rant then shut them up with facts, performance and killer films.

 

[AndreeMarkefors]

As to the $15k Red Epic. I thought that's what Epic-S was? A scaled down version of Epic-X, for $12k (or so, base)? No?

Sure was/is.

But how is that product even possible? What features will be removed from Epic-X to sell Epic-S at $12.000?

My bet for Nov 3rd has to be for 2/3", and RED certainly hasn't said anything else- quite the opposite. S35 is simply extrapolated, wild speculation from forum users. I challenge you all to spec up a product with S35 that could be sold for around $10.000-15.000.

And, really... we've seen quite bit of Scarlet already. Last we heard and saw is what Ted's been running around with. It's a REAL sweet 2/3" package for "around 6k".

If RED presents Scarlet and it's 10k. Well.... =)

But as much as I really, really want Scarlet, 2/3" is difficult for me. I'm not knocking it as a cinematic tool–several established DOPs have already vouched for the format–but I personally would trade 2/3 for S35 and give up many other RED features, so that I can use it extensively as a stills camera too (plus at bit more creative options in "motion mode").

Jim has once again underlined 4k in another post, just now. Maybe "Ted's Scarlet" has been bumped to 4k? If so, can they maintain noise levels and dynamic range?

 

[Phil Anderson]

But how is that product even possible? What features will be removed from Epic-X to sell Epic-S at $12.000?

Redcode limitations, framerate limitations with overcranking limited to 120fps(?) Epic-M is machined parts (as opposed to cast) and built one at a time, by hand.

But yes, you are right in a sense, for working productions that have some liquidity, Epic-S is going to be the industry killer.

 

[AndreeMarkefors]

Redcode limitations, framerate limitations with overcranking limited to 120fps(?)...

Those are the obvious choices, but as I've tried to outline before—it's quite problematic.

REDcode: you only need one, at the most two flavors. Start where there are compression artifacts and slowly up the bitrate until you are firmly within "visually lossless". With a codec as good as REDcode, I wouldn't be surprised if this records nicely onto a 600x CF-card (what I mean is, you won't need that high bitrates). The second flavor would be lossless compression. All other versions are just hard drive fillers. And obviously— RED wouldn't release a camera that records in a codec where you get visual artifact.

In summary: REDcode "limitations" are not limitations at all. They are optimizations.

Frame rates are the real deal. A "budget" Epic could be capped at 96 fps. That's quite a noticeable downgrade if you're into over cranking. And it would be a good selling point for Epic X.

Hand made, luxury finish? Yeah, well.... nice, but TOTALLY a non issue for people looking for a cinematic/photographic tool.

 

[Armando Barker]

I wonder what's the best way to get an order in?
Keep refreshing the website? (Never, ever works)
Or camp in front of Red Studios?

 

[Gavin Greenwalt]

That kind of post will only increase in numbers.
Ive been monitoring this forum for years and only within the last couple of months has lowend value posts exploded by users with little to no posts. I can only fear what it will be like if the camera is affordable for main man. It will drown the quality posting completly and i fear some of the posters that ive had the luxury of reading will stop.
Ive seen it happen else where and its a pain.

There's always the #FishTank. It'll always be the place you know and love.

 

[David Rasberry]

Sure was/is.

But how is that product even possible? What features will be removed from Epic-X to sell Epic-S at $12.000?

My bet for Nov 3rd has to be for 2/3", and RED certainly hasn't said anything else- quite the opposite. S35 is simply extrapolated, wild speculation from forum users. I challenge you all to spec up a product with S35 that could be sold for around $10.000-15.000.

I can see Red producing a smaller 4k sensor on the same format as the original RED 1M , 22mm wide APSC size instead of Epic's 5k 30mm. With half of Epic's processing power behind it you would get 60fps or maybe a bit more at 4k, up to 30fps with HDRX. 9Mp instead of 14Mp of Epic, so not directly competitive, but more than enough to beat the other low end S35 cameras. With the economies of scale offered by the new mass production modular design they should be able to price a bare brain around the target cost of the originally announced Scarlet S35. Say$7-8k.