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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

24p vs 25p debate

Jonathan Smiles said:
You don't convert a 24p movie directly to 30fps, you slow it to 23.976fps then add pulldown to get 29.97fps.
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So if you have to slow it down it's better to start already with 23.976fps...
 
In the current environment, for the easiest redistribution to all international clients, 23.976 is the best starting point.

That doesn't make it the best format, but it does make it the best compromise. People in PAL countries are used to seeing american content that has been sped up - it's not going to distract them. People in NTSC countries are used to seeing 23.976 transmitted with pull down, it's not going to distract them.

There is less post processing with 23.976 going to 29.97.

If I was making the suggestion to someone as to what format they should shoot to have maximum quality in ALL deliverables, 23.976 remains the optimal format in the current environment - and there is no getting around it...

Jack of all trades, master of none type situation. As a standard, yes it is based off NTSC which was introduced for a stupid reason... but that's not going away any time soon if ever (simply because of the plethora of existing equipment that utilises that standard.).
 
Luca Immesi said:
So if you have to slow it down it's better to start already with 23.976fps...
Click to expand...

It's a DoP creative decision, many feature film DoPs coming from a 35mm film background to digital want it to be exactly the same as film and they want the 24fps cinema version to be the definitive version.

A side note, you use 173° shutter when shooting 23.976/24fps in a 50Hz country to avoid/minimise flicker.
 
Jonathan Smiles said:
It's a DoP creative decision, many feature film DoPs coming from a 35mm film background to digital want it to be exactly the same as film and they want the 24fps cinema version to be the definitive version.

A side note, you use 173° shutter when shooting 23.976/24fps in a 50Hz country to avoid/minimise flicker.
Click to expand...
So 1/50th, right?
 
24 vs 23.98 vs 25

24 vs 23.98 vs 25

A lot of good and interesting points here - Patrick makes some good arguments in his post, as does Jonathan. There are two issues at play, and we need to separate them a bit since they'er not perfectly linked together. That's the issue of 24 vs 25 and the issue between 23.98 and 24. All the info in this threat is valuable, but I'm going to add to this post from my experience. -it's gonna sound a bit frank, but on issues like this, I'd prefer to be frank than soft.

Brian-
Starting with the 24 vs. 23.98: There is no image qualitative difference between the 24 and 23.98/23.976. None whatsoever. One is not slower, nor faster, nor more like film, nor less, not more accurate, nor less. The difference is purely in the way in which computers lay frames out, and the ease of use in moving/manipulating these files. In fact, most systems today enable you to use them interchangeably, though that is not recommended. Other systems easily let you convert one to the other, often without a render because again, it's not changing the frames, just the way in which the computer interprets them.
Because of this (and here comes the frank part) there is no benefit to using 24 over 23.98. There are disadvantages to using 24, but no benefits over 23.98. In other words, if you put a list of pros and cons to using 24 and 23.98, you would find there are more cons in 24 and all the pro are shared between the two. Since we already discussed there is no image difference, I will make a bold statement that people can feel free to challenge me on:
There is no reason to shoot 24. There were even discussions from many camera manufactures to take out 24 from the camera recording options.

Shooting 23.98 is exactly like shooting 24 (literally exactly) but the ways in which the frames are laid out do not enable that signal to be synced to every monitoring source. For example, if you only have a monitor capable of 23.98 and 59.94 SMPTE signals, a 24 frame image will simply not display on that monitor without being converted. If you want to take a 24frame master tape and make a DVD, you cannot downconvert and add 3:2 pulldown to that master without converting it. And if you want to distribute it on DVD, BluRay, broadcast, etc., you cannot deliver a 24F tape. The good news is more and more display devices are accepting of 24F and the problem is far less of a problem that it used to be. But I feel it's not any more understood. So if you introduce reasons in which 24 cannot be used in every situation and 23.98 can, then the obvious answer is don't use it. You can think of great reasons to use 24, but I can promise you, 23.98 can do the same thing and more.

The other issue is 25 vs 24. All my European friends shoot 25 and tend to master everything 25. Unlike 23.98 vs. 24, this issue is a bit more subjective - as much of the decision lays within the expected distribution pipeline. Here is one trick I offer my clients:
If the film has a better than 50% chance of being distributed in North America and Europe, 23.98 is probably the best way to shoot it. That way you minimize the conversion process and the master can be viewed on film perfectly. If there is a better than 50% chance of the film being distributed on PAL DVD/broadcast, 25 is the right choice. If there is a better than 50% chance the film is being distributed in NTSC DVD/broadcast, 23.98 is the best choice.
The honest answer as people pointed out is there is no triangle that is perfectly balanced. You must make a compromise on some format - so my trick is to help you decide where to make the compromise based on the percentage of probability of exhibition. This way you take the probability and gear your workflow towards serving the largest market, then let the lower markets (lower probabilities) be contingent on the conversion process. Again, there is no perfect solution (other than to shoot the film twice:-) so set your standards based on your likely largest form of exhibition.
m
 
I produce documentary TV show for both domestic (canada) and international markets, and hands down 24p is the way to go. The reason being it can convert into both PAL and NTSC with easy. PAL to NTSC and NTSC to PAL is an expensive process. I provide my distributors with a 23.976 master. They can then simply do a TAPE to TAPE, rather then piping it through expensive cross conversions that do pull downs.

Another plus is 24p save both card and drive space!!!

MD
 
Really very interesting thread!
Jonathan, Michael, if I would start a new longtime project today in Europe, which frame rate would you choose?
(Somehow Michael answered my question "is 23.98 the new 24p" with yes. Or am I wrong?)
The biggest mistake with introducing HD was to not define a new international frame rate standard. But it will come sooner or later.
What do you think, will it be 23.98? (The default setting with R1 after firmware update).

Marc
 
Whenever I view films in the cinema I always switch the card to play the film at 25fps, when playing 35mm prints. It nicks off a few minutes and doesn't affect the viewing. As digital projectors become more the norm there is absolutely no reason why it should be interchangeable for whatever film is being ingested. Pretty much every projector I've used or serviced can play at 24/25/30 fps. They just need to be switched. To projectionist this is easy to do when you set up the automated scenario. Although most 35mm like the kinoton are manual switches for speed. They of course are rarely used.
 
i am newbie to camera technicalities, it is more informatory.but i want some clarification that R1 can shoot at no of fps but if i use at low end items like panny 370 or 500 to make my movie to release it theatrically, it is main aim. for that, even though i am in India, pal region can i shoot it at 24 pn or 23.976p at shutter 1/50th. is there any possibilities of that in those cameras and DSLRs. can anybody clarify me. if my question is unrelated and nontechnical to pal region series. please excuse for my ignorance. i am asking with curiosity that, if that is possible i can go for directly to 24p , so no conversion required for 25 to 24 and again sync of sound at all.
thank you a lot seniors
 
nobody hasn't seen my previous post till now, so that's why i can't get any answer yet. if possible give your best answer for that sir.
 
I'm not sure I completely understand the question, but I think you're asking whether or not with a Panny 370 or 500 you can shoot at 24 fps (or 23.976) at a 1/50th second shutter speed. Is that correct?

If so, the answer is yes, you can. Pretty much any camcorder capable of shooting 24 fps will be able to shoot 24fps @ 1/50th, as it is necessary to avoid flicker in 50Hz countries.

Hope I got the question right, apologies if not!...

Cheers,
Dom.
 
Interesting thread.
We could suggest that Red builds an option into our cameras where you can simultaneously record 23.98 AND 25, for those who have a production which is probably going to be broadcasted in European television and in cinema... Would take some double space on the hard drive and lot of processing power, i guess. But with Epic's processor it's no big deal!
Eero
 
Conversion between 24fps and 25fps has never been a big issue, especially since audio time warping works without pitching the sound up or down.

The only problem that arises is the fact that the length of the program will change (4%).

I do both, commercials for the cinema and PAL broadcast. We choose the frame rate based on the main utilisation. A projects that ends up on the web is shot 24fps, a project that ends up on DVD is shot 25fps, a project that is mainly aimed for the cinema is 24fps and a project that will be broadcasted here in PAL land is 25 fps.

If we have a project, a TVC for instance, that will be broadcasted AND released in the cinema and both versions have to be exactly 30 seconds long you have to re-edit the 24fps version. We shoot such projects in 25fps because the PAL version is mainly the version that needs to be released first, then we have some time to do a re-edit for the cinema version.

If your want to be compatible to NTSC (59.97 Hz) your must shoot 23.98 fps. The difference between 24 and 23.98 is so minor that I believe that the modern 24fps is actually 23.98.

Any takes on this issue?


Hans
 
thank you Hans von and Dominic, you have given good answers but i am not questioned proper way. is that panny's 370 and 500 pal region models can support shooting at 24 fps or not, for digital cinema purpose? they support 25 fps. otherwise i have to shoot at 25 fps and convert it to 24 fps. if they support i can go directly 24 fps. In this thread so many people are from pal region so i am asking my doubts here. sorry for so much troubled you, thank you all people for your patience in giving answers to juniors like me
 
what abt whether to shoot with 2k or 4k for theatrical release? I just had a testcam and previewed the result in the grading room (before printing to 35mm film), and we couldn't see the difference between 2k and 4k... any thoughts anyone? thanks!
 
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