24p vs 25p debate

[Brian D. Goff]

I know it has been posted before, but considering a Film for international distribution and Festival screenings and DVD. A week before shooting (after doing all tests in 25p), all of a sudden 24p is now being discussed again.
So here my questions to the reduser wizards:

-No matter what project frame rate I shoot, someone down the line will be unhappy - right?

-24p/25p is now a days no issue for sound, post and distribution, there are "easy" ways to convert 24p to 25p to 24p?

-Why should I prefer one of the frame rates over the other?

Thanks

 

[Hans von Sonntag]

Brian,

for a given length you cannot easily convert 25 fps to 24 fps regarding pictures. You have to put your 25 fps project into a 24 fps timeline. This will make your project longer, the sound will be out of synch. You can time warp the sound to the new length without the 4% pitch when you use the right tools.

This said: 25fps is only meaningful for PAL broadcast and DVD in PAL countries. 24fps works much easier for the cinema, actually right out of the box, but also for the web, because only very few monitors are able to playback 25 fps properly. 24 fps fit nicely into the common 60 Hz pull down process.

IMHO, only because we Europeans are used to 25 fps it is not naturally the best frequency. Web projects are much better off with 24 fps and cinema projects as well.

For 25 fps release in the PAL world, that also includes DVD of course, you can do the above mentioned steps just the other way round.

Hans

 

[Marcus Struzina]

There could be another way to think about this, if the movie is a slow paced drama shot at 25fps, if you slow it further to 24fps for projection and Ntsc dvd that may push it into being too slow. If on the other hand it was action the slight slow down might be ok. Of course the same considerations apply to material shot at 24fps, if it was fast paced action then the shift to 25fps for Pal broadcast dvd might be too much. Just another thing to think about.

 

[Jonathan Smiles]

US studio movies are shot at either 24p or 23.976p (23.98).
District 9 was 23.976p
Green Zone 24p
Red Riding 1983 24p
Vampire Killers 24p
Rafta Rafta 24p

If your project is a movie for theatrical release I would suggest 24p unless you have a very specific reason to shoot 23.976p .

Shooting 25p is a valid choice for something shot primarily for European television.

 

[Marc Berger]

Jonathan, what is the specific reason to shoot 23.98 P? Mainly 24P DVD release and TV? Or is there another reason for 23.98 over 24P?
Until now I always thought 25P is not so bad as a start, because a slightly slowed down movie is more pleasant to the eye then the opposite.
Thanks,
Marc

 

[Jonathan Smiles]

Jonathan, what is the specific reason to shoot 23.98 P? Mainly 24P DVD release and TV? Or is there another reason for 23.98 over 24P?
Marc

By adding pull down 23.976p plays nice with NTSC.
There can also be other reasons such as VTR compatibility etc.

 

[Álex Montoya]

It's better to shoot 24.

It'll be a little bit faster when you put it on a dvd, but that's better than slower.

 

[nageswara rao s]

thank you all. i am indie from India, wants to make a low budget movie with digital camera,wants to release it theatrically too. i am also in pal region, so i have also lot of issues over this debate. thank you vans hon and others.
so keep update with more suggestions needed if possible. good day

 

[Nick Gardner]

I think it depends on where you are shooting. If you are in the EU with 50hz power, then 25 makes a lot of sense.

nick

 

[Álex Montoya]

If he wants to releae in theaters, 24 is much better.

It's better to convert from 24 to 25 than the other way.

 

[Rainer Fritz]

I think it depends on where you are shooting. If you are in the EU with 50hz power, then 25 makes a lot of sense.

nick

You can choose a shutter speed of 1/50s anyway, also when you shoot 24p. But be sure your HMI light is flicker free to be safe.

 

[Nick Gardner]

Good point. I forget that there isn't a mirror in there sometimes ;-) I'm in denmark shooting 24p at 1/50th right now -duh.

Nick

 

[Mathieu Ghekiere]

I *thought* Graeme (Natress) at one point once said (long before he worked for RED) that he preferred 25fps, and it was the 'better' format. He made software to make NTSC to PAL and vice versa.
I could be wrong though, but I thought I once read that at dvinfo.

 

[Ryan Sims]

I *thought* Graeme (Natress) at one point once said (long before he worked for RED) that he preferred 25fps, and it was the 'better' format. He made software to make NTSC to PAL and vice versa.
I could be wrong though, but I thought I once read that at dvinfo.

I guessing that was back when most NTSC SD video cameras did only 60i.
SD PAL had a slight resolution advantage over NTSC and the 25fps could be played at 24fps for film conversions and film looks.

 

[Marc Berger]

By adding pull down 23.976p plays nice with NTSC.
There can also be other reasons such as VTR compatibility etc.

Thank you Jonathan!
Would you consider 23.976p the new 24p? I mean, 24p comes from film, so what would be the best "stocking" format in digital times? I just would like to find out if I should switch from 25p to 24p or 23.976, because I´m working on longtime projects and I don´t know where and how they will be released.
(Brian, I hope you´re not feeling I´m hijacking your thread. I just had the same questions).

Marc

 

[soren k jensen]

Nattress conversion

Nattress conversion

http://www.nattress.com/Products/standardsconversion/standardsconversion.htm

 

[Jonathan Smiles]

.... I just would like to find out if I should switch from 25p to 24p or 23.976, because I´m working on longtime projects and I don´t know where and how they will be released.

If you have started shooting at 25p then stick with 25p to be consistent for the entire project, switching part way just causes confusion.

 

[Luca Immesi]

During the first Reducation we discussed that and we came to the conclusion it was better to shoot 23.976 in NTSC country and 25p in Pal country. This is because it's much easier to convert 23.976 to 30fps and not to 24p to 30fps.
I'm wondering if it's possible to shoot at 23.976 @ 1/50 shutter speed.

 

[Jonathan Smiles]

This is because it's much easier to convert 23.976 to 30fps and not to 24p to 30fps.

You don't convert a 24p movie directly to 30fps, you slow it to 23.976fps then add pulldown to get 29.97fps.

 

[Patrick Tresch]

Thank you Jonathan!
Would you consider 23.976p the new 24p?

This would be big mistake...

23.97 is a bastard standard that is coming all over, even on the lower market like the 5D MKII. Hope this standard will be dropped and stop the bad NTSC legacy. Man, we are in the 21st century and we still have to fight against a technical stupidity done in some few contries back in the 40ies!!! 50hz rules the major part of the world.

http://www.google.ch/imgres?imgurl=...page=1&ndsp=40&ved=1t:429,r:8,s:0&tx=84&ty=40

Now let's push 25p to be a DCP compliant format. Remember that 25 is a great number for 100hz and 200hz TV's and that 24p was based on the 1440RPM motors that where used to synch the first sound cameras at the beginning of the talkies (1440/60hz=24).

My vote is for promoting 25p for the DCP...

Pat

PS: until 25p is not promoted to be DCP compliant I'll shoot "real" 24p... :biggrinjester:
PSII: harmonizing the sound from 24 to 25p is not a straight forward process and could be tricky on special sounds like music...
PSIII: For a fast conversion without picture quality loss I use cinema tool and reconfrom the QT from 24 to 25 the quality is good enough for DVD/Bluerays. It plays faster and the sound is a bit pitched... Sound and editing guys could be desapointed... in some cases.