240fps advice for dragon...

[Lee Burnett]

Got a shoot next weekend on the Epic Dragon. Mostly shot at 24fps 4K, but will be shooting two scenes at 240fps. (Unless I can get near that at 3K... can someone verify what fps it shoots at 3K?)

I did some test shots last week, and although the 240fps 2K footage is pretty amazing, I'm finding it nowhere near matches the 4K stuff.... obviously 2K has nothing on 4K in terms of resolution and detail, but there's a fair bit of grain and noise, and the image just seems soft... softer than I thought 2K would be. I understand that the sensor is cropped in at 2K, just didn't think it would be noticeably soft.

What procedure can I follow to get the best out of the 240fps stuff on the shoot? I didn't black balance before the test, and can't remember what ISO I shot at.

Are there rules with this? I think I read somewhere that 250iso is best for 240fps, is that correct?

Also we shot slightly underexposed, which I also realise would cause grain (was in a rush) but what's the best option to get exposure up? ISO or aperture? Does this depend on the lens?

I think we can stylistically grade to make these shots stand out compared to the rest of the film, but would rather not be restricted by the graininess/softness, although it doesn't look bad, has a nice filmic quality to it.

Thanks for any help.

 

[Lee Burnett]

Also some other points, we shot this on a Canon L series lens, but when we get to the shoot we will have Zeiss CP2's.

Obviously these will be sharper, but will this be noticeable when cropping in to 2K?

One other thing:

Would I be better off editing and exporting at 4K, and upscaling the 2K footage, that way I keep the 4K quality mostly, or would it be better to downgrade all to 2K?

Because it's only 2 shots, it seems crazy to sacrifce the quality just for them

 

[Maik Müller]

Have a look at Phil's charts for specific fps-numbers:
http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?92999-Red-Dragon-Info-and-Data-Sheets
Maybe the fps you get with 2.5k is enough?

Expose for low iso to minimize the noise-floor. To get exposure up use lights or open aperture, do not increase ISO.
Do a blackshade for the specific shutter speed you are going to use.
Use lowest compression-ratio to minimize compression-artifacts.
Use the sharpest prime-lens at it's optimum aperture.
I would use the LLO-OLPF to get that extra-bit of light.

You could also shoot at a lower frame-rate but with higher resolution and then use something like twixtor to get your footage slower - but that highly depends on the subjects you are going to shoot. Do some intensive tests before shooting, or do multiple shots with different settings if you can.

I think thats all you can do.

Edit and master in 4k. Why sacrifice all the 4k-beauty on your other shots for those two lower-res-takes?

 

[Björn Benckert]

What Mauík Says but I would ad the following.

If you can then get a really good 16mm lens / a fast lens that covers the 2k but not so much more. That will likely render a sharper image than using a FF35 lens. Shoot at the best fstop for the lens like 5.6 or such, wide open is not such a good idea, as then you add softness to a already soft image.

For the exposure I would not look to much at the iso, whats important is that your exposure is to the far right on the histogram in raw, make sure the peaks are just under the RGB stop lights and that your noise floor lands about center of histogram. If you got that your image would look good in 250 ISO or lower and you use the better half of the histogram.

then make sure you blackshade for the exposure time and temperature, normally when shooting high speed there is a lot of light around camera, if so black shade in that environment after the camera and lights has been on for quite a bit of time.

I would not shoot the rest at the same resolution, noise, low detail, unsharpness etc is all very easy to add in post. To take such away is on the other hand not really possible so better to shoot as good quality as possible and then if need add grain and so on to the none high speed stuff in post if needed.

For the frame rates, as I remember horisontal resolution does not cost speed only compression so its possible to shoot 2k wide faster than 2k 2:1 and so on.

 

[Hal Long]

I've found that 240 fps @ 2k scales nicely for HD and doc/reality work where the high-speed cams usually have a different look. If you're finishing to 4K, you need to black balance on-set or under similar temp conditions for your frame rate. When hi FPS shooting, I'll usually store all the likely frame rate black shades ahead of time. When we're outside I'll go ahead and leave the camera in the sun for a bit to get the temp right before shading. Sharp primes are usually better but I've had good luck with quality Angenieaux, Fujinon and Canon zooms as well.

Often clients will ask to do 240 but I'll keep 3K & 4K black shades stored so I can show them how they look. Frequently, that's all it takes to sell 120 fps or 150 over 240.

Good luck!

 

[Björn Benckert]

I've found that 240 fps @ 2k scales nicely for HD and doc/reality work where the high-speed cams usually have a different look. If you're finishing to 4K, you need to black balance on-set or under similar temp conditions for your frame rate. When hi FPS shooting, I'll usually store all the likely frame rate black shades ahead of time. When we're outside I'll go ahead and leave the camera in the sun for a bit to get the temp right before shading. Sharp primes are usually better but I've had good luck with quality Angenieaux, Fujinon and Canon zooms as well.

Often clients will ask to do 240 but I'll keep 3K & 4K black shades stored so I can show them how they look. Frequently, that's all it takes to sell 120 fps or 150 over 240.

Good luck!

agree normally 120 fps is plenty... or its one of those shoots where even 1000fps is not enough.

 

[Michael Lindsay]

HS with dragon..

My advice... And I have shot a lot of HS dragon footage.

Try 2.5k (and you get to basically 200fps) and see if it is slow enough... It is significantly easier to match to 4k material with a HD delivery. (Rather than 2k)

Lots of light and def don't underexpose.. This can not be said enough!! I recommend, as a loose rule of thumb, treating as 250asa.

Sharp lenses... Zeiss glass has a bit snap that I feel helps with slowmo (I like MPs or even Ultras if not going too wide). No Super 16 lenses apart from ultra16s are really worth the effort.

Make sure you BB for the relevant frame rate..

 

[Lee Burnett]

Thanks for the responses guys, first post here so it's good to get such helpful advice straight away.

Some great advice there, and being the first time shooting with the RED I think I totally underestimated how important black balancing is, and because I was in a bit of a rush I think I was slightly underexposed... One thing is that the RED screen seems wayyyy overexposed at the high end of the histogram, obviously it's RAW so it's fine, it's just something to get used to.

The HS shots are of a wave hitting a rock, and also of a large boulder/rock being cleaved in half at a quarry - both with ambient daylight. I can't light either shot because of location and space/time constraints. That's also the reason we need higher than 120 (and probably without Twixtor because of movement), the rock cleaving will be quick and is something we can't test - scary, we hoped to get the Phantom, but budget is tight.

Luckily these two shots will be done on a separate day to the rest of the shoot.

I think I will be fine shooting at 200fps, didn't test it, but 120 was slightly too quick, I can imagine the difference between 200 and 240 is slight?

BB has to be done on an empty card, correct? And I only do this if frame rate changes?

What do you mean by 'black shades stored'? I can BB in similar conditions and save that information to load later? Will do some research on this.

So Björn, you'd say that if I have to up the ISO to get a higher exposure that's more important than keeping ISO down? That's always been my rule of thumb when shooting non-RAW. Is there a multiple I should try and stick to, i.e. multiples of 250?

Also is an OLPF an Optical Low Pass Filter? Will also do some research, if anyone has some good links to read up about this that would be great.

Thanks

 

[Björn Benckert]

Told

Thanks for the responses guys, first post here so it's good to get such helpful advice straight away.

Some great advice there, and being the first time shooting with the RED I think I totally underestimated how important black balancing is, and because I was in a bit of a rush I think I was slightly underexposed... One thing is that the RED screen seems wayyyy overexposed at the high end of the histogram, obviously it's RAW so it's fine, it's just something to get used to.

The HS shots are of a wave hitting a rock, and also of a large boulder/rock being cleaved in half at a quarry - both with ambient daylight. I can't light either shot because of location and space/time constraints. That's also the reason we need higher than 120 (and probably without Twixtor because of movement), the rock cleaving will be quick and is something we can't test - scary, we hoped to get the Phantom, but budget is tight.

Luckily these two shots will be done on a separate day to the rest of the shoot.

I think I will be fine shooting at 200fps, didn't test it, but 120 was slightly too quick, I can imagine the difference between 200 and 240 is slight?

BB has to be done on an empty card, correct? And I only do this if frame rate changes?

What do you mean by 'black shades stored'? I can BB in similar conditions and save that information to load later? Will do some research on this.

So Björn, you'd say that if I have to up the ISO to get a higher exposure that's more important than keeping ISO down? That's always been my rule of thumb when shooting non-RAW. Is there a multiple I should try and stick to, i.e. multiples of 250?


Also is an OLPF an Optical Low Pass Filter? Will also do some research, if anyone has some good links to read up about this that would be great.

Thanks

Yes do not trust the screen. Only the histogram and the goal posts on the side of the histogram and the RGB overexposure "stoplights" looking at whats at the screen and shooting dragon is if you don't set your monitor way down and iso way down pretty much a sure underexpo procedure.

 

[Hal Long]

"Black shades stored":

You can store four black shades in the sensor calibration area of the menus. You select a slot to write the shade and then run the calibration. Remember the specific frame rate must be set before making each calibration.

 

[Lee Burnett]

I can't find a 2.5K option in the menu? How do I go about selecting 200fps?