Welcome to our community

Be a part of something great, join today!

Log in
  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

13 threads on CORRUPT frames in less than 2 MONTHS

Kim Frank

Kim Frank

Well-known member
Joined
May 21, 2009
Messages
524
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Age
44
http://reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=48541&highlight=corrupt


http://reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=48461&highlight=corrupt


http://reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=48337&highlight=corrupt


http://reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=48128&highlight=corrupt


http://reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=48137&highlight=corrupt


http://reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=48080&highlight=corrupt


http://reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=47216&highlight=corrupt


http://reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=47114&highlight=corrupt


http://reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=47520&highlight=corrupt


http://reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=46880&highlight=corrupt


http://reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=45230&highlight=corrupt


http://reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=32135&highlight=corrupt


http://reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=46543&highlight=corrupt


And I suppose there are many more with this Problem.
Is it really possible that suddenly so many Fire Wire 800 cables, CF Card Readers, Drives, etc. went bad?
 
No in most cases of corrupt tranfers and dropped frames people need to get a DIT who can do his job and stop cheaping out on cheap solutions. In my opinion anyway.
 
And, there are also 8,000 + RED ONEs out there.

How does that thing go? "For every cockroach you see there are ten"? So 130? That would make it 0.01625% based off 8k.

Or 99.98375% reliability. :)

And I bet you several are pure human error.

And keep in mind that RED is the "future camera" in a way, a camera more widely accepted by people that have a stronger web-presence.

Finally, it would be interesting to find out what the numbers are for hairs stuck in the gate that go un-noticed, shutter malfunctions, or other mechanical deterioration on film cameras with moving parts add up to.
 
Data integrity is a solved problem, technically-speaking; RED simply doesn't implement any of the solutions. Someday they will and corrupt frames will be a thing of the past.
 
Erich Ocean said:
Data integrity is a solved problem, technically-speaking; RED simply doesn't implement any of the solutions. Someday they will and corrupt frames will be a thing of the past.
Click to expand...


How can this be? Why would RED not implement any data loss solutions? That is quite troubling.
 
Dustin Cross said:
None of those threads has anything to do with cheap solutions or bad DITs.
Click to expand...

That is a shame then, but it doesn't mean RED One is particularly un-reliable. That is more of an archaic tidbit which is unfortunately perpetuated by uninformed people who haven't yet heard about free firmware updates.

And of course also perpetuated by the competition popping into REDuser to make noise while they lack the tech to keep up.
 
Dustin Cross said:
None of those threads has anything to do with cheap solutions or bad DITs.
Click to expand...

Most of the bad frames I have seen, comes from bad copy/transfer operations, not from the cam. I dare not say all, but definitely: most.
This includes local copies after initial transfer.

Trouble is that when media is re-formatted, you have no way to check.
 
Gunleik Groven said:
Most of the bad frames I have seen, comes from bad copy/transfer operations, not from the cam. I dare not say all, but definitely: most.
This includes local copies after initial transfer.
Click to expand...

OK. In that case that would mean the right person wasn't hired. Human error.

Or did we use to let our beloved cousin' Vinnie develop our footage in the lab just cause he already owned a red light bulb from his clubbing days? :smilewinkgrin:

I kid, but you see my point. Transfer errors are not camera errors. They are producer errors.
 
Don Harris said:
How can this be? Why would RED not implement any data loss solutions? That is quite troubling.
Click to expand...

Well, I can think of a few reasons:

1. engineering time is limited (they haven't gotten around to it)
2. all of them take some amount of processing power (not much, but more than "none")
3. all of them take some amount of bandwidth (again, not much, but more than "none")
4. they are happy with the status quo and would prefer to blame media, readers and cables (just kidding)

In all seriousness, I'm certain RED will implement data integrity when it becomes a higher priority. God knows that an EPIC has the processing and bandwidth. :-)
 
Erich Ocean said:
Well, I can think of a few reasons:

1. engineering time is limited (they haven't gotten around to it)
2. all of them take some amount of processing power (not much, but more than "none")
3. all of them take some amount of bandwidth (again, not much, but more than "none")
4. they are happy with the status quo and would prefer to blame media, readers and cables (just kidding)

In all seriousness, I'm certain RED will implement data integrity when it becomes a higher priority. God knows that an EPIC has the processing and bandwidth. :-)
Click to expand...

Can you imagine someone from Nikon making that statement about a new camera? "Well guys, we don't see data integrity as a big issue. It would take engineering resources away from more important things like super cool "pet" mode and "smile detection." We might get around to including readily available solutions in version three or four of the camera." It would be a PR nightmare.
 
Erich Ocean said:
In all seriousness, I'm certain RED will implement data integrity when it becomes a higher priority. God knows that an EPIC has the processing and bandwidth. :-)
Click to expand...

The Epic is supposed to have per-frame checksumming in camera.
 
If I google "Alexa corrupt frame" I get 615.000 million hits.
"D7 corrupt frame" gets 376.000.
What I'm saying is, this doesn't mean a thing.

Any technology, old or new, will always have minor quirks. Considering that there are about 7.000 R1 cameras shooting several million frames every single month, a few corrupt frames are really acceptable.

When film first started, about 50% of all footage was lost in the lab. Now we are down to a fraction of a percent.
 
Don, can you imagine what a nightmare it would be to have a camera that records ~25% the resolution, shoots ~25% the framerate, costs more than twice as much, weights more than twice as much, shoots to big fat expensive boxes instead of 0.5 oz (14g) memory cards, and anyone would bet you fails just as much?

Of course EPIC is not here unless your last name is Sorenberg on Fincher, but that only means the scale is tipped a little less steeply. Other than the box and the CF card thing of course.

Just thought I'd put that in perspective against the best of the rest. Not sure why. Guess every once in a while you feel you have to say it.

0.02
 
Don Harris said:
Can you imagine someone from Nikon making that statement about a new camera? "Well guys, we don't see data integrity as a big issue. It would take engineering resources away from more important things like super cool "pet" mode and "smile detection." We might get around to including readily available solutions in version three or four of the camera." It would be a PR nightmare.
Click to expand...

RED is not any worse (or better) than Nikon, Canon, ARRI, Panavision, SI, Panasonic, Sony or anyone else. If the EPIC really does have per-frame checksumming, that would no longer be true and RED *would* be doing better than everyone else. Bravo!

Most of the time, for most people, absolute data integrity is not a must for images and isn't worth the extra CPU cycles, bandwidth, and storage costs. In fact, the RED One is *already* throwing away data through compression.

I don't think this is an issue to get worked up about. It is certainly not a "PR nightmare".
 
Dustin Cross said:
None of those threads has anything to do with cheap solutions or bad DITs.
Click to expand...

Most if not all of those have been caused by a DIT not verifying their data on set. If they had the corrupt frames would have been noticed and the card taken out of circulation with the files still intact for recovery.
I see bad transfers everyday when I don't have my cart with me in challenging locations, checksum verify and then visual verify. Unfortunately not of those bad situations would have been solved by a good DIT on set, not all but most.
 
Roberto Lequeux said:
And,

Finally, it would be interesting to find out what the numbers are for hairs stuck in the gate that go un-noticed, shutter malfunctions, or other mechanical deterioration on film cameras with moving parts add up to.
Click to expand...

Hi,

As one checks the gate after a circled take the no of unnoticed hairs would be zero. Generally film cameras are fairly simple, if they worked correctly when tested yesterday they will be fine today unless something stupid happened such as being dropped in the sea.
 
Martin Weiss said:
If I google
When film first started, about 50% of all footage was lost in the lab. Now we are down to a fraction of a percent.
Click to expand...

With all due respect thats FUD, To start with labs did not exist, you processed your own film.
 
Martin Weiss said:
If I google "Alexa corrupt frame" I get 615.000 million hits.
Click to expand...

Martin...
With all my Respect, but this search isn't any proof, or did you go through the Results and check that they are really about corrupt frames.
Although I don't get your numbers:

RED CORRUPT FRAME
About 1,150,000 results
http://www.google.com/#hl=en&q=red+corrupt+frame&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai=&fp=12555d642d826253

ALEXA CORRUPT FRAME
About 475,000 results
http://www.google.com/#hl=en&q=alexa+corrupt+frame&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai=&fp=12555d642d826253

this doesn't say anything...

I'd like to stick with this board and the threads that I read and know they are about corrupt frames.
As I said 13 in not even the two last months, but just 7 from January til Juli 2010

http://reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=40527&highlight=corrupt


http://reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=42483&highlight=corrupt


http://reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=42110&highlight=corrupt


http://reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=45230&highlight=corrupt


http://reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=46540&highlight=corrupt


http://reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=44698&highlight=corrupt


http://reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=44596&highlight=corrupt


If it is really just up to the offloading Pipeline, why does the presents of this Problem increase. And please don't start that "crappy DIT" or "cheap sollutions" stuff again. I really dislike this attitude as long as you really KNOW it was the case and the threads don't state that.


I really get the point about the percentage of Red shoots vs. Posts about Corrupt frame issues, but not everyone that shoots RED is a Reduser. We don't know how many DOPs, Post facilities and Rental Houses deal with this issue every day and do not post it on the board.


Let's say it is not a Recording error but happens while offloading, I think it would be very importand for RED to take this issue serious and offer some sollution. Easiest would be taking it in the manual for example. They could state that corrupt frames may appear and that it is a neccesarity to eye ball all takes, or at least the importand ones, after offloading, before reformatting the media.


It would perfectly fit into the OFFLOADING MEDIA section:


CAUTION: REDFLASH 16GB Compact Flash cards transfer Data at extremely high rates. RED reccomends a high performance, professional UDMA reader( from areputable manufacturer) when w downloading from 16GB CF cards. Using inexpensive or low-quality readers may cause damage to the cards and/or corruptin/loss of media files stored on them.

Edit something like:
To avoid the loss or curruption of any Footage, RED reccomends to watch the offloaded R3D Data in RedcineX to verify the complete data transfer, before reformatting the media. If corruption appears RED reccomends to switch out the cables and/or Card reader.


Something like this... I'm not native speaking, so please be patient. The issue also appeard with RED Drives, so it would need a Caution Warning on that section too. And I think it's such an importand thing to know, that it would need to be a point in the

POSSIBLE ERRORS, ISSUES AND SOLLUTIONS section.


Something like:
R3Ds won't Playback after offloading.
Or
Green and/or destorted frames in the Footage.


RED?
Someone?
You could save some people some serious problems...
 
In nearly 3 years of shooting our 3 Red bodies we have had only one incident of corrupt footage which was saved by the Red team (prior to Red Undead).

In those same 3 years- rentals of the same 3 cameras have had multiple issues with lost or corrupt footage, and 100% of the issues are directly related to hiring of inexperienced data techs or warm bodies. We have heard it all in 3 years. We have been called to set too many times to count with "drive failures" that were simply not plugged in or hot swapping drives w/o un-mounting, using cheap USB cables and un-powered backups despite our warnings to the contrary. Those very same cameras came back to our studio and worked flawlessly.

As long as inexperienced crew (AC, Operators, data management) manage the data, there will be corrupt footage. Especially when the cameras are not prepped properly prior to shooting and a solid media management plan is not implemented.

If you take the time to learn your craft and follow basic rules you should not have issues.

3 years and thousands of feet later I still have every single frame I have ever shot with my Red Ones.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top