12 on 12 off

[David Mullen ASC]

That's the other problem with regular 14+ hour days, even with a 10 hour turnaround for crew, your call time drifts later and later each day so that by the end of the week, you are starting in midday -- so not only are you tired from working long hours and from not getting enough sleep, you are tired because you don't have regular sleeping hours, and by Monday you have to switch back to waking up pre-dawn and start the whole cycle over again.

 

[David Mullen ASC]

The thing is that a director making his dream feature won't see what the big deal is to bust everyone's ass for the length of his feature -- he forgets that he may make a feature once every three years, whereas the crew has to work many more days per year just to maintain their income level. For every feature a director I know makes, I shoot maybe three features, or a TV series and two pilots, etc. and my crew works almost twice as often as I do. At least I can average three months off a year to rest up. This is the inherent problem of mixing art and profession, the profession has to support yourself and your family financially whereas the art of it doesn't necessarily, so while some directors actually take time off from earning a living to make their feature, the feature is how the crew is actually earning their living, whether or not they are also into it for the art.

 

[Ketch Rossi]

The thing is that a director making his dream feature won't see what the big deal is to bust everyone's ass for the length of his feature -- he forgets that he may make a feature once every three years, whereas the crew has to work many more days per year just to maintain their income level. For every feature a director I know makes, I shoot maybe three features, or a TV series and two pilots, etc. and my crew works almost twice as often as I do. At least I can average three months off a year to rest up. This is the inherent problem of mixing art and profession, the profession has to support yourself and your family financially whereas the art of it doesn't necessarily, so while some directors actually take time off from earning a living to make their feature, the feature is how the crew is actually earning their living, whether or not they are also into it for the art.

You are absolutely right David, seen it too many times in my years in Hollywood, fortunately there are exceptions...


I SURE AM ONE OF THEM!!


I wish to be respected and for this I will always respect others, the fact of been not well will not allow me to kill my self, and sure I will not kill others for it, but I will have them work at my own pace, with 5 working days, and good meals...

 

[Francesco Bonomo]

That's the other problem with regular 14+ hour days, even with a 10 hour turnaround for crew, your call time drifts later and later each day so that by the end of the week, you are starting in midday -- so not only are you tired from working long hours and from not getting enough sleep, you are tired because you don't have regular sleeping hours, and by Monday you have to switch back
to waking up pre-dawn and start the whole cycle over again.

Yeah, we experience the same here, at least on tv series (very different on commercials), when we have to shoot nights: we start shooting nights on Monday, on Tuesday we wrap a little later, and then from Wednesday to Friday we basically start 2 hours earlier, till we're back on "regular" time on Friday. Obviously, it's "regular" for the contract, but not really for our bodies and minds. But since the producers are incredibly tight with money, it's almost a given not to shoot night or to have any extra hour on Friday (it's a complicated rule, but what happens is an extra hour on Friday is considered "drifting" into Saturday, which is considered holiday like Sunday, so an extra hour on Friday is very expensive for them).


(there are talks of a new contract now, the one that we're kind of using right now is 10 years old and some of its rules have never been applied, so we'll see how that goes. Actually, if things keep going the way they are, we may have a brand new national contract and no industry to apply it to, so it wouldn't really matter).

 

[Mike Kushner]

Well spoken, Mr. Mullen. I could not agree more with your postings in this matter. I speak to this in pre-pro meetings (when all the PM's are sharpening their pencils and trying to win awards for cutting days) and get those "why are you lazy" looks from my execs when i don't want to schedule all 14 hour days.

I think having the feeling that you have some free time each day is important to the creative process. The slave mentality does not yield the best work.

 

[Rob Gardner]

Excuse me for not getting out my crying towel for all the union crew members making double time and working on major projects. It is all relative, as was noted by the poster from Turkey. And sympathy for the drivers? Maybe they get up early, but they spend the rest of the day sleeping or inhaling craft services. In other countries and in other venues the rules and the working styles are very different. David Mullen, as I'll bet he knows, is a man well blessed with these problems. Go talk to the 8 percent of the country who is unemployed. See if they will cry you a river.

 

[Brad Webb]

Excuse me for not getting out my crying towel for all the union crew members making double time and working on major projects. It is all relative, as was noted by the poster from Turkey. And sympathy for the drivers? Maybe they get up early, but they spend the rest of the day sleeping or inhaling craft services. In other countries and in other venues the rules and the working styles are very different. David Mullen, as I'll bet he knows, is a man well blessed with these problems. Go talk to the 8 percent of the country who is unemployed. See if they will cry you a river.

Yes, god forbid people get compensated for skilled worked. Not all union crew members work on major projects, and if they do, so what. There is no reason to work 14+ hour work days, week after week. It's poor scheduling and producing.

Just because the work conditions in other countries are worse doesn't mean it's right. Sometimes a 22 hour day is unavoidable. What is avoidable is productions scheduling 14 hour days, to shave off a few bucks. That's 14 hours of production time, which doesn't include travel, make up etc. 14 hour shoot day = at least 16 hours of people being up some at 18, 19, 20 hours. That leaves a max of 8 hours left in a day to do everything else... eat, sleep, shit, shower, shave, etc.

 

[Kemalettin Sert]

i forgot the add there is no overtime pay in Turkey(maybe after 30 hours they ll order free pizza and beer)
if you dont work for 24hours in a day they ll find another one instead of you so simple for productions..

 

[Rob Gardner]

"Yes, god forbid people get compensated for skilled worked. Not all union crew members work on major projects, and if they do, so what. There is no reason to work 14+ hour work days, week after week. It's poor scheduling and producing.

Just because the work conditions in other countries are worse doesn't mean it's right. Sometimes a 22 hour day is unavoidable. What is avoidable is productions scheduling 14 hour days, to shave off a few bucks. That's 14 hours of production time, which doesn't include travel, make up etc. 14 hour shoot day = at least 16 hours of people being up some at 18, 19, 20 hours. That leaves a max of 8 hours left in a day to do everything else... eat, sleep, shit, shower, shave, etc. "

Well, you know, there is such a thing as counting your blessings. I mean, after all, Brad, you could have a real job. You know what I mean, a job with no creative element whatsoever, in a cubicle or a factory or a retail store, for slightly above minimum wage. Nobody is forcing you to work for the circus, after all, Brad. So if the inhumanity of it all is getting you down, you might just consider walking away and giving somebody else the chance.

 

[Shane Kelly]

Yeah, we experience the same here, at least on tv series (very different on commercials), when we have to shoot nights: we start shooting nights on Monday, on Tuesday we wrap a little later, and then from Wednesday to Friday we basically start 2 hours earlier, till we're back on "regular" time on Friday. Obviously, it's "regular" for the contract, but not really for our bodies and minds. But since the producers are incredibly tight with money, it's almost a given not to shoot night or to have any extra hour on Friday (it's a complicated rule, but what happens is an extra hour on Friday is considered "drifting" into Saturday, which is considered holiday like Sunday, so an extra hour on Friday is very expensive for them).



(there are talks of a new contract now, the one that we're kind of using right now is 10 years old and some of its rules have never been applied, so we'll see how that goes. Actually, if things keep going the way they are, we may have a brand new national contract and no industry to apply it to, so it wouldn't really matter).

usually, in the US, it just gets later and later, so, on Friday you are shooting splits and finishing early Saturday morning.
Otherwise known as "f**k you Fridays" as it destroys your weekend.

 

[Brad Webb]

usually, in the US, it just gets later and later, so, on Friday you are shooting splits and finishing early Saturday morning.
Otherwise known as "f**k you Fridays" as it destroys your weekend.

And then you've got a 5am call time on Monday. You get home a 7am Saturday, sleep until 2-3pm. See your wife/gf for a few hours. Pass out around 9pm. Get up Sunday and do laundry, then in bed by 10.

 

[Gunleik Groven]

Call me crazy, but I like to spend time with my wife in the evenings after work. I'd like to not be exhausted all weekend so I can go out to a movie with her and not fall asleep in the middle of it. 12-hour days for months on end are tolerable, not ideal, but 14-hours+ for months on end is insanity, it's for young people with lots of energy and no family or friends. And, again, it's not safe. And worst of all, you don't just put your life at risk driving home tired, you put innocent people on the road at risk.

And camera people have one of the few crew positions where you work during the set-up AND during the take. Actors mainly work during the take (and rehearsals, make-up time, etc.) and other crew people work during the set-ups and can rest during the takes. If I step away just to take a piss, there is a PA following me on a walkie reporting on when I enter and leave the john, it's crazy. Or I hear: "he's headed for the craft service table... he's looking at the donuts... no, he's headed back to set..."

Well, this is my main reason for trying to find "other" worksituations. I realised I suddenly didn't have a wife, but still three kids...
Not that I'll stop shooting, but I am looking for different working conditions than 60 to 112 days of 12-16 hours.

Yes, I know. It's a dream. And I don't wanna teach too much...

But seriously, the hours kills off a lot of fun, and eventually it is sobering to realize that this is an industry, even though "art" of some sort is the driving force for many of us.

So I say no to a lot of work and try to find my way into a more liveable work/family total thingy.
A bit late unfortunately...

12 on 12 off is a good start for that.

 

[Shane Kelly]

"

Well, you know, there is such a thing as counting your blessings. I mean, after all, Brad, you could have a real job. You know what I mean, a job with no creative element whatsoever, in a cubicle or a factory or a retail store, for slightly above minimum wage. Nobody is forcing you to work for the circus, after all, Brad. So if the inhumanity of it all is getting you down, you might just consider walking away and giving somebody else the chance.

I was waiting on this argument to appear and that's really not why I posted the article in the first place. The real issue here is safety. Making people drive home after !4 or 16 hours without a proper turnaround is dangerous, plain and simple. Sleep deprivation driving is akin to drunk driving. Producers should be held accountable for putting not just the worker in question in danger but also everyone else on the road. It applies to bars, why not productions?
I have been in this business for 25 years, I've almost fallen asleep at the wheel several times in my younger days. Now I insist on a room or a driver as dying for hollywood is a really stupid way to die.(not that there's a smart way, although old age might be a good one).
Safety is important, don't let the glamour of the job get you killed. I'm not even going to bring up riding in the back of a pickup or hanging out of a helicopter.
for your perusal: http://hd24.com/page44/page18/page18.html

 

[Gunleik Groven]

There is security and life priorities... Both counts And both deals with the comfort and danger of living.

 

[Martin Stevens]

10 hour days should be the norm.

However, if I were working on a film like "Blade Runner" or some other favorite film
then 12 or 14 hours might be slightly okay.

 

[ian dart]

and there we go..... the above post is why we are working 14+ hour days.

people, you need to draw a line in the sand and say no more...... 14 hour days are not ok.

in my case, i have drawn the line and make it very clear right from the start things will get dark at 12 hours.

hire me, dont hire me but thems the rules.

 

[Alex Kornreich]

For every crew member in LA that doesn't want to work, there are 1000 to replace him/her. As long as the film business is a desirable place to work, this will always be the case. The power is in the producer's hands. The only way things will change is if the government steps in (which is often not a good thing), or if the unions step up. But even if the unions demand change, the low budget productions, where things can get really bad, and often crew aren't even financially compensated for it, will not get any benefit.

 

[Carter Cammack]

I'm not a player in "the Industry", but judging from the small-scale jobs I've shot and acted in, I would much prefer a cast and crew that isn't exhausted, distracted, fatigued or otherwise not there for any reason. It saves a ton of blown shots and speeds up the whole process when the team is on time and on task, and I don't have to repeat what I ask them to do, or remember their lines for them.
I'd schedule for ten with 2 hours for contingency. (reshoots, equipment or tech issues, etc.) If we're out early, awesome.
. . . in a perfect world . . . .

 

[Marc Wielage]

The great cinematographer Haskell Wexler did an award winning film Who Needs Sleep, inspired in part by the terrible tragedy of assistant cameraman Brent Hershman, who fell asleep while driving home with that day's footage from Pleasantville. Horrible story. People who work in all aspects of film & TV production -- documentaries, reality shows, scripted dramas, sound, production, and post -- are all affected by this.

I've personally driven off the road a couple of times but caught myself before there were any serious problems, coming home from a 16 or 18-hour post-production shift. I had a few years where I worked one 24-hour day every week, separate from my usual 10-12 hour days. Our issue in post is that we get really addicted to the money. But after awhile, you realize the time spent away from friends and family, the stress, and the health risks are too great. As Han Solo said: "No reward is worth this!"

I agree with David Mullen: working 12-hour days for months on end can be extraordinarily tiring. I find it rough just to work 7 or 8 weeks on a feature, even with days off and occasional short days. And indies are worse, especially when you encounter neophyte producers who have no clue over issues like short turnaround, the greater risk for mistakes once actors and crew are tired (like over 15-16 hours), plus the problem of travel time.

Haskell's film is quite sobering, and more producers, studios, networks, and crews should be keenly aware of the risks involved.

 

[Tom.Wong]

i just got off a long shoot myself. each day was OT, and kept pushing the call the day after the next, until it became a overnight shoot. if you include me waking up early to beat the rush hour traffic to get to set (the later the call the worse the traffic got, and the earlier i had to wake up, making my 8 hours of sleep more like 5) and than the final downloads, transcodes, and prepping hard drives after wrap. i did 21 hour day by the time i got home on the last day of shooting.

i'm in my mid 20's and would be considered a young guy, but i'm not handling these late nights like i used to when i was 22, and it's only gonna get worse. i know it, and i feel it. and i openly admit, i had a really hard time driving home. i had nowhere to crash for the morning, and my car had to be off that lot. the only incentive for going through all that was all the OT was wracking up.

going for a 14 hour day before double OT starts just decreases the incentive to much so much energy into it. it can be a moral killer, and in the end, leads to even more abuse because the OT penalty doesn't hurt as much anymore. to take more of that away is gonna lead to even more incidents because a 16 hour day will be the new norm. you get on episodic, and do that, plus how you are always playing catch up in the hours, and how friday always turns into saturday late morning because of all the OT and catch up turn arounds...

it only gets worse from there...