1080p... Not a loser!

[Nils Ruinet]

But when I shot the release of the iPhone in San Diego, w/two HVXs, the AC was still backing up and verifying an hour after we wrapped. That was when I left and he still had work to do...

We MUST know what the time requirements of RedCine are on a decent computer system or it's all speculation.

Sounds familiar :wink:
I recently came back from a 2 week HD shooting with 2 HVX. It was a documentary film, we had 4 firestores, which we dumped to two 4TB raid-5 drives (the second one was for backup). We were changing location quite often, so there was no time for transfers during the day. The poor AC didn't sleep much during these 2 weeks ! :waaa: I think he now hates P2 and tapeless workflows !

And that was without any conversion (like the one we would need from 2K or 4K to 1080P), just transfers...

So Redcine render times DO matter.

 

[Casey Green]

Again, my big three questions:

1) Can a software app. come with the Camera that allows the User to flash the firmware and thus allow for individual choice of supported modes? (this is based on the idea of the programmable FPGA which we have been told we can upgrade with firmware already, no?...... then no one loses functionality; those who want 2K@96 change the firmware for that mode, those who want 720, or 1080 use a different firmware rev. Also, this may allow for other possible 4K modes... )

2) If not, if 720p is dropped and 1080p is still kept, will this still allow for 2K@96fps? (if so, this is not a bad compromise.)

3) What is the RedCine down-res processing time? (And what factors go into this calculation? Is it different on faster CPUs?)

I know Jim wanted to let this sit for a day or two to get our responses... when we get the answers to these questions, it will make the decision a bit easier to make.

 

[Häakon]

Really good post, Casey - I think it pretty much sums up the pages and pages (and pages!) of discussion we've been having over the last couple of days. I almost want to just close it now since I do agree with you that we really need this information before speculating any further, but then the topic would probably fall off the front page and not be seen by the person(s) who we need to see it most. Anyway, I hope that Jim can address those items soon.

 

[Nils Ruinet]

Again, my big three questions:

1) Can a software app. come with the Camera that allows the User to flash the firmware allow for individual choice of supported modes? (this is based on the idea of the programmable FPGA which we have been told we can upgrade with firmware already, no?...... then no one loses functionality, thos who want 2K@96 change the firmware for that mode, those who want 720, or 1080 use a different firmware rev. Also, may allow for other possible 4K modes... )

2) If not, if 720p is dropped and 1080p is still kept, will this still allow for 2K@96fps? (if so, this is not a bad compromise.)

3) What is the RedCine down-res processing time? (And what factors go into this calculation? Is it different on faster CPUs?)

I know Jim wanted to let this sit for a day or two to get our responses... when we get the answers to these questions, it will make the decision a bit easier to make.

I totally agree.
We can't really answer Jims initial question as long as we don't have these answers.

Regarding your first point : I think they said the RGB modes were not supposed to be on the first cameras, they would come later as firmware upgrades. So if they're able to do such an upgrade, I don't see why this wouldn't be possible.
And this solution would solve everything ! Everyone could install the firmware he wants, the one with the 720 / 1080 option, or the one with the 2K@96fps option. And we could reprogram the FPGA if we need to change, depending on the work we're doing and what we need at that moment.

 

[number6]

If we get to build our REDburger our way, make my meat 4k raw, and hold all the condiments, except the Redcode sauce.

 

[Laco Zamba]

Let's stop speculations and wait for Jim.

 

[David Battistella]

3) What is the RedCine down-res processing time? (And what factors go into this calculation? Is it different on faster CPUs?)

To quote Frank Zappa, This is the crux of the biscuit.

If RGB and REDCODE are effectively the same speed then just dump 720P in favour of the 2K@96 option.

e z p z.

David

 

[Poi Boy]

I'm with you #6, the simpler the better. 4k into FCP and spit out what you want. I don't have any time figure but going from 1080 to 720 doesn't take any time at all so I don't think that will be a huge issue. IMO If you need to pass off 720 or 1080 at light speed then you really should be using a different solution.
Aloha
-A

 

[David Battistella]

Let's stop speculations and wait for Jim.

Jim actually asked us for all of this speculation. We appreciate having a hand in shaping the final product.

David

 

[Häakon]

I'm with you #6, the simpler the better. 4k into FCP and spit out what you want. I don't have any time figure but going from 1080 to 720 doesn't take any time at all so I don't think that will be a huge issue. IMO If you need to pass off 720 or 1080 at light speed then you really should be using a different solution.
Aloha
-A

Keep in mind that if you ditched everything but 4K, the highest framerate you'd get is 30p. At least with the 1080 scaled option, you can shoot up to 60p and still take advantage of the image characteristics of the full sensor.

 

[Laco Zamba]

Jim actually asked us for all of this speculation. We appreciate having a hand in shaping the final product.

David

OK, but it's not ease to read it all. It will take long-long time Too many threads, confusing pollings, ... We miss his quick answers.

 

[number6]

Keep in mind that if you ditched everything but 4K, the highest framerate you'd get is 30p.

I got the sense from Jim that greater things (framerates) are just over the horizon. I think if the Red Team could concentrate on increasing the framerate of 4k, it could happen very soon. Brainpouer is like a lense... turned one way it concentrates light to it's highest intensity, while turning the lense around scatters it.

 

[Poi Boy]

Sorry I forgot to mention I like the 2k@96 option
Aloha
-A

 

[Costelloe Michael]

I'm pretty sure you may have said something about that previously:shifty:

Mike C

 

[Tom Lowe]

If there is no 1080p RGB, I won't order the camera. It's the only way I can shoot overcranked scenes for my movie using the 35mm lenses I can going to buy or rent.

 

[number6]

If there is no 1080p RGB, I won't order the camera. It's the only way I can shoot overcranked scenes for my movie using the 35mm lenses I can going to buy or rent.

Tom, what is the minimum frame rate you need? I'm just asking because I'm wondering if the 2k framerate of 96 fps rate, then sped up in post, wouldn't be as good or better than 1080 RGB? I'm just sayin'... I'm just askin'.

edit: it just occurred to me that you want high frame rates to SLOW DOUN the action.... Duhhhh

 

[Poi Boy]

If there is no 1080p RGB, I won't order the camera. It's the only way I can shoot overcranked scenes for my movie using the 35mm lenses I can going to buy or rent.

Tom you are not serious are you ? slo mo is your only reason for buying Red?
-A

 

[Jason Murphy]

Tom, what is the minimum frame rate you need? I'm just asking because I'm wondering if the 2k framerate of 96 fps rate, then sped up in post, wouldn't be as good or better than 1080 RGB?

The real issue here is DOF. 2K windowed won't have the same DOF/lens characteristics as 1080 scaled.

 

[Michael Lindsay]

Tom

I doubt that is true...:biggrin: If so would you like to make a fast buck???

Reading between the lines of recent red posts... Jared talking about red-ram possibilities about a week ago and JJ yesterday.. there is the strongish hint that there will be a away to shoot higher than 30fps without a fridge (High speed data recorder)... Some high speed memory to cache the overflow of raw data needing to be wavelet compressed combined with the higher potential data rate of red-ram perhaps?

I frequently need to shoot 60fps on my paying jobs... But it is very rarely wider than full body shot therefore 2k Windowed on some fast glass should be fine I've cut near S16 out of the centre of 35mm in HD tk before and its cuts fine (if it isn't wide...)

Years ago I spent a little time as a consultant for a company doing some HD products and it amazed me how slow it can be... Therefore I'm happy for Red to really focus development resources and deliver faster (and probably more solidly)..

regards

Michael (two red reservations too late for his liking) Lindsay

 

[Michael Lindsay]

shooting at T1.3 (or a little off for sharpness) on Master primes, Ultra 16 lens, super speeds or maybe even Optar T1.3 with a slightly longer lens might work for you...

Cooke make a conversion on there big zoom that turns it into T1.5... Maybe Red can offer it on there zooms and alow us to have an option on a super fast s16 lens with the same field as view as 35mm (If it was offered as fixed mod I'd buy the lens twice)

regards

Michael