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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

1080p monitoring in Build 16?

David - not that I have any scoop on the matter, but my gut is that the answer would be "no" - the issue being one of not having enough scaling engines in the camera as I understand it - gotta get the debayered pixel res down to 1080p, 4:2:2 is actually more work than 4:4:4 since ya gotsta convert color spaces. So, sadly, we won't be using a 1080p/i signal to evaluate focus live on set.

When I've discussed this before, I think it was Mitch Gross from Abel Cine said that's a fallacious approach anyway - the way you focus isn't to look at the monitor, but to have a skilled AC pulling focus.

Of course, we want to play it back at best possible res and see how it does.

Lets see if the as-yet-to-be-announced Red 4K displays (Ted mentioned previously) will provide an on set solution - wouldn't that rock!

: )

-mike
 
Why not just go out and get a decent scaler or just monitor 720 pixel for pixel. It's just meant for monitoring and unless you're watching a small monitor (<24") at a really close distance you're really not going to see a dramatic difference between 720P and 1080P, it's not a broadcast studio camera after all and 720P beats cine camera video taps every time. Raw capture is not like with the HD cameras where you pretty much have to paint the camera on set to get decent results.
 
Mike,
I expect they have a bunch of code/experience on the shelf from their 1080 rgb record/monitor development days which co-existed with evf/lcd 720p.
My money's there's some wriggle room there....technically.
Whether it's a good marketing to have 1080p (tape/file) out and cutout their raw software is something else.
Nothing wrong about giving people what they want though.
Dave,
 
david farland said:
Couple of points here.....

...Can (is it physically possible?) to do some kind of 1080p sdi out at the same recording 2k/4k redraw whilst feeding the 720p lcd/evf?
I expect they'll have to feed a 720p lcd/evf eventually...when they create a 1080p...ahem, cropped build anyway!
...
Saint Jude
Click to expand...

I think you ask the wrong question. Why would you want 1080p to evaluate what you capture on a 4k camera? One day I suppose we will get 4k OLED viewfinders, in the meantime it would seem more useful to aim for a 2k output. You can get decent 2k LCD monitors these days, and the selection is bound to improve. My guess is it would be much less processing intensive (and also simpler to program) to output a 2k signal.
 
oldphart said:
I think you ask the wrong question. Why would you want 1080p to evaluate what you capture on a 4k camera? One day I suppose we will get 4k OLED viewfinders, in the meantime it would seem more useful to aim for a 2k output. You can get decent 2k LCD monitors these days, and the selection is bound to improve. My guess is it would be much less processing intensive (and also simpler to program) to output a 2k signal.
Click to expand...

I agree completely. A 2K output seems like it would be much more likely, and while it may not work with a lot of recorders, it would be great for monitoring. The BlackMagic HDlink Pro handles 2K, and even if Red produced a non-standard 2:1 2K, it would probably only take a firmware update to the Blackmagic card to be able to handle that as well.
 
Why you want 2K over HD as an SDI acquisition/monitoring format?
The 6% increase in resolution doesn't seem to warrant the world of incompatibilities...particularily as I've got a redcine 2K delivery solution anyway.
 
david farland said:
Why you want 2K over HD as an SDI acquisition/monitoring format?
The 6% increase in resolution doesn't seem to warrant the world of incompatibilities...particularily as I've got a redcine 2K delivery solution anyway.
Click to expand...

It is not about any increase in resolution, it is about a much simpler scaling operation. I can easily write a program to scale 4k to 2k without loading the processor much, especially if it does not have to be aquisition quality. While RED have shown that they have impressive programming skills available, it seems like not even they are able to do an odd rescaling like 4k to 1920 with acceptable quality within the current hardware constraints.
 
Scaling

Scaling

oldphart said:
It is not about any increase in resolution, it is about a much simpler scaling operation.
Click to expand...

Correct - if we scale in-camera for a high quality 1920 x 1080 output we should crop, then scale 2:1 - i.e. from 3840 x 2160 RAW to 1920 x 1080 progressive RGB. Or, without cropping, you could create 2048 x 1152 RGB from 4096 x 2304 RAW. Hence the 2K comments last year.

Although other scaling factors could be applied, you would introduce scaling artifacts that would detract from the whole purpose 1080p output is being requested for.
 
Stuart English said:
Try other camera companies don't constantly enhance their systems specs. :red_bandana:

Remember at NAB 2006 the RED-ONE was a 2K RGB camera, and that Summer we added 4K RAW (at no extra charge) The dual link HD-SDI was already there for 1080p RGB (cropped from 2K RGB) output. Also recall the heated discussions about why 2K RGB was or wasn't a bad idea to be recorded? Well we listened to that too and so RGB has been on a lower priority than RAW - especially as 12 bit RAW recording is so flexible in post.

When the camera records 1080p RGB, then the dual link HD-SDI output can provide 1080p 4:4:4 too. But in any case the HD Preview output is 720p - and its 720p for each and every format that the camera records. This is the way it has always been, nothing has changed.
Click to expand...

Stuart,

This maybe blasphemy. but I don't think you can ride the we gave you a 4k instead of 2k camera anymore. thats old news , 2 years ago. what have you done for us lately. while it is fantastic that we can get new features its also a huge hassle for a lot of users dealing with a betacam. some features are essential and there are still some bugs even in fairly stable release firmware. I think a little humility is in order rather than a if you don't like it go somewhere else attitude. these are the customers who will buy your next products. who have made the RED ONE a success and who have stuck with you and defended what you are trying to do.

its very hard after you sold your clients on this system to go back and say well that other thing I said we could do we cant. at the least it makes you sound uninformed and at worst it makes you sound and feel like an idiot. I can understand shawns disapointment.
 
1080p record and output

1080p record and output

Can we finally get the spec'd 1080p monitoring out the dual-link HDSDI? While using the 23" Apple Cinema Display with the Blackmagic HDLink, the 720p output looks kinda crummy in the center 1/4 of the screen. Having full 1080p monitoring would be really cool.
Click to expand...

This is Sean's original post.

The answer we have consistently given is a) you can not get 1080p out of the HD Preview HD-SDI or HDMI port, and b) you will be able to obtain 1080p RGB dual link once the camera supports 1080p, as the dual link HD-SDI output reflects the recording format.

That is not intended to be disrespectful at all, and apologies if it was taken that way. The thread evolved beyond this initial question.
 
darkkelt said:
Stuart,

This maybe blasphemy. but I don't think you can ride the we gave you a 4k instead of 2k camera anymore. thats old news , 2 years ago. what have you done for us lately. while it is fantastic that we can get new features its also a huge hassle for a lot of users dealing with a betacam. some features are essential and there are still some bugs even in fairly stable release firmware. I think a little humility is in order rather than a if you don't like it go somewhere else attitude. these are the customers who will buy your next products. who have made the RED ONE a success and who have stuck with you and defended what you are trying to do.

its very hard after you sold your clients on this system to go back and say well that other thing I said we could do we cant. at the least it makes you sound uninformed and at worst it makes you sound and feel like an idiot. I can understand shawns disapointment.
Click to expand...


ouch, damn man, could you not have taken another 15min and found a more tactful way to present this?

Jay
 
Jay A. Kelley said:
ouch, damn man, could you not have taken another 15min and found a more tactful way to present this?

Jay
Click to expand...

Jay I wasn't trying to be tactless or attack RED. Im actually amazed at the things that they have pulled off. but even if they have the right to be a little arrogant sometimes I think they should take the high road and choose not to be. again we all want this system to continue to succeed and grow and to mature into what 99% of us want. I'm not into the bitching that goes on in some of the threads. but I do want RED to listen to our concerns even when they don't agree with them or they can't feasibly provide certain features rather than telling us to lump it if we don't like the way they do things.
 
1080p record and output

1080p record and output

darkkelt said:
I do want RED to listen to our concerns even when they don't agree with them or they can't feasibly provide certain features rather than telling us to lump it if we don't like the way they do things.
Click to expand...

I'm sorry, but those are your words not mine. I have explained what we can do, and the path to 1080p output. Its not a like it or lump it issue.
 
Stuart English said:
I'm sorry, but those are your words not mine. I have explained what we can do, and the path to 1080p output. Its not a like it or lump it issue.
Click to expand...

I'm sorry if I put words in your mouth stuart. but what does this sentence mean since I mistook it for something else

"Try other camera companies don't constantly enhance their systems specs."
 
Camera development

Camera development

darkkelt said:
I'm sorry if I put words in your mouth stuart. but what does this sentence mean since I mistook it for something else

"Try other camera companies don't constantly enhance their systems specs."
Click to expand...

Fair question darkkelt, but the context of that quote was in response to this -

"I don't understand the decision to put dual HD-SDI ports on the camera, which are now (presumably) worthless, since you only need dual HD-SDI for 1080p 4:4:4. So, I have hardware on the camera for something that doesn't exist in software. Try explaining that to a client."

So I said.

"Try other camera companies don't constantly enhance their systems specs" :red_bandana:

(With a bandana note - so not to be taken too seriously...) I guess the real point is that dual link was ONLY ever for 2K/1080p RGB output, and it still is.

Now we have 4K RAW, do you still want 1080p? Yes is the clear answer, so O.K.

But note, it was NEVER there as a feature for monitoring 4K RAW capture.
 
I always thought 1080p monitor was in the spec.

I remember discussing recording to SRW deck on set for a tape workflow and would mention this to my clients in the early days.

I do believe having a 1080p output preview on a 4k camera is not unreasonable especially as it has the hardware HDSDI already.
 
Hahaha. This thread is ridiculous and sad at the same time. There will be no 1080 on set monitoring or recording like many of us hoped. There go a lot of corporate and web commercial opportunities: some of the few opportunities that can actually afford a full rental rate.

I'm trying to move forward with this but those transcode times need to come down, a lot. The faces I get when I tell people about post are the faces of people who don't care so much about 4k or 2k for that matter. The funny thing is, they're the ones with the money.
 
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