10 Scarlet Questions from Joseph Hutson

[Philip Lipetz]

But to understand the frustration of the sound people that visit these boards, I think you have to understand a little about what it's like to work in the Sound Department - even on high budget features...
At Red there are people who are passionate about codecs and compression ratios. There are people passionate about accessories and design. Red has people who are passionate about lenses, and or course sensors and mounts. But who is passionate about audio? I mean someone who tucks in their 788T every night?

I meant no disrespect to Red. They are doing fantastic work, not only creating great products, but pushing the entire industry in a direction that's better for all of us.

And maybe people leaving comments are right - putting even mini XLR connectors on the fixed scarlet is asking too much, that it would make the camera too expensive, or cause design issues.... but can't the issue be discussed?

Clash of cultures. I agree totally about sound.

I can also understand Jarred's frustration, but the Scarlet is a cross-over machine that inevitably brings in people with wildly diverse viewpoints. As for me, sound is at least half of what makes my stuff work, when it works. So, I worry. I hope I worry unnecessarily.

Just because I worry it does not mean that I disrespect Jim, Jarred or Red. I thank them for their promises to lift moving images into a new era. If Scarlet is designed to work only in controlled situations, preferably with dual sound, then it still is a wonderful machine with revolutionary potential. Those of us with a different viewpoint just want to find out what it is.

Many of us have been waiting for years, and that wait generates questions that are very different from the type of questions that might be asked of a shipping product whose qualities are self-evident. Hey, the gang of wonderkids at RED say that the specs are a moving target, so we just want to follow the product as it shifts. And hopefully become a small part of the process that lifts a great product into as many markets as possible.

 

[Rick Burnett]

That's great that the NTG-2 sounds good. I've never used it, but I've gotten great sound from the NTG-3, so that doesn't surprise me. I've seen some tests with the video mic where I was less than impressed. I don't have a lot of experience with battery-powered mics, mostly because they're on the cheap end and I don't expect them to perform, so I don't really give them a chance. How do you like the Kiwi? I tried the Dragonfly years ago when I got my first condenser, the Neumann TLM 103, and the Neumann sounded way better to my ears. And then I found the Gefell MT71S, which beats the Neumann: http://www.mercenary.com/migemts.html (Mercenary's a great company to buy from, btw. They'll let you try things out at home and return it if you don't like it, or try out a few different ones and only buy your favorite. I wish they carried shotguns.)

I really like the Kiwi, I use it for A LOT of ADR. I find it to be a very neutral mic. I'd like to try one of the Mojave MA200 as well.

I'd like Blue to make a nice shotgun mic. I like the quality and sound of their mics A LOT.

 

[Terry VerHaar]

...
And maybe people leaving comments are right - putting even mini XLR connectors on the fixed scarlet is asking too much, that it would make the camera too expensive, or cause design issues.... but can't the issue be discussed?

But it still seems you are missing the point, even while you are making it. You CAN have mini-XLR connectors on your Scarlet... just add the standard I/O module. Prefer full XLRs? No problem there either, get the pro I/O module. Obviously, anyone can discuss it all they want but just acknowledge the FACT that these options ALREADY exist. Whatever discussion there is shouldn't have to continuously dispel the erroneous notion that they don't - with the resultant ad naseum suggestions that RED should create them.

 

[Philip Lipetz]

But it still seems you are missing the point, even while you are making it. You CAN have mini-XLR connectors on your Scarlet... just add the standard I/O module. Prefer full XLRs? No problem there either, get the pro I/O module. Obviously, anyone can discuss it all they want but just acknowledge the FACT that these options ALREADY exist. Whatever discussion there is shouldn't have to continuously dispel the erroneous notion that they don't - with the resultant ad naseum suggestions that RED should create them.

I think people are wondering about the sound quality of the built-in preamps, and the seemingly disportionate cost of the Pro XLR package that seems to be overkill. When added to an EPIC the Pro XLR package is understandable, but the real question is if Scarlet is only a cheap brain that REQUIRES accessories designed for much more expensive systems. That is why people keep talking about the base package, and not what is possible with add-ons.

Perhaps these comments are not complaints but a desire to know what is really on offer.

 

[Rick Burnett]

But it still seems you are missing the point, even while you are making it. You CAN have mini-XLR connectors on your Scarlet... just add the standard I/O module. Prefer full XLRs? No problem there either, get the pro I/O module. Obviously, anyone can discuss it all they want but just acknowledge the FACT that these options ALREADY exist. Whatever discussion there is shouldn't have to continuously dispel the erroneous notion that they don't - with the resultant ad naseum suggestions that RED should create them.

Or in other words, RED is not making you buy something that you may not want OR need with extra cost. They are giving you the option of adding what you want and STILL coming in below inferior products that exist today.

 

[Philip Lipetz]

Or in other words, RED is not making you buy something that you may not want OR need with extra cost. They are giving you the option of adding what you want and STILL coming in below inferior products that exist today.

But what do we really need to do what we each desire? Some of us want to know before we purchase the base package.

 

[Michael Panfeld]

Or in other words, RED is not making you buy something that you may not want OR need with extra cost. They are giving you the option of adding what you want and STILL coming in below inferior products that exist today.

I totally agree. Correct me if I am wrong, but the best audio section on the RED, as well as the Epic/Scralet will be 16 bit 48 Hz. That level of bit rate and sampling is considered the bare minimum for professional sound. 24 bit is really necessary.

I'd rather put the $$ towards dedicated sound equipment (which I already own).

 

[Terry VerHaar]

I totally agree. Correct me if I am wrong, but the best audio section on the RED, as well as the Epic/Scralet will be 16 bit 48 Hz. That level of bit rate and sampling is considered the bare minimum for professional sound. 24 bit is really necessary.

I'd rather put the $$ towards dedicated sound equipment (which I already own).

OK - you asked for it... you are wrong. As was stated a little earlier in this thread and in the specs on RED's Scarlet page), 24 bit. :laugh:

 

[Colin Sheldon]

But it still seems you are missing the point, even while you are making it. You CAN have mini-XLR connectors on your Scarlet... just add the standard I/O module. Prefer full XLRs? No problem there either, get the pro I/O module. Obviously, anyone can discuss it all they want but just acknowledge the FACT that these options ALREADY exist. Whatever discussion there is shouldn't have to continuously dispel the erroneous notion that they don't - with the resultant ad naseum suggestions that RED should create them.

So your options are either underkill (1/8") or overkill (the I/O modules). After all, full sized XLRs comes with Dual HDSDI, 4 channels of AES-EBU, Two Aux power/GPIO ports, and Lens/RS232.

Of course I'll have a Pro I/O to go with my Epic - to me that's a no brainer. The options that it offers are incredible matched to the Epic style shoots.

Element Technica exists because of the Red One. They went from a couple of guys in a shop to two large buildings pumping out millions of dollars of equipment because they allowed the Red One to conform to industry standards.

In the same way, whoever comes out with a great XLR solution at a low price point will make a killing... so why not have Red do it?

 

[Rick Burnett]

I think people are wondering about the sound quality of the built-in preamps, and the seemingly disportionate cost of the Pro XLR package that seems to be overkill. When added to an EPIC the Pro XLR package is understandable, but the real question is if Scarlet is only a cheap brain that REQUIRES accessories designed for much more expensive systems. That is why people keep talking about the base package, and not what is possible with add-ons.

Perhaps these comments are not complaints but a desire to know what is really on offer.

It doesn't REQUIRE them. Just because the connector is 1/8 TRS that is somehow an indication of the converters? I am glad they used 1/8 TRS over miniXLR.

The point is, if you NEED more in your situation, you have the option. The Scarlet is a camera to me that covers quite a wide expanse of users. I think they made the right decision. I'll be looking to use a nice right angle TRS that I will build and move the large XLR connectors to somewhere out of my way.

No other camera I have gives me the option of adding different audio setups with a module so tightly integrated.

 

[Terry VerHaar]

So your options are either underkill (1/8") or overkill (the I/O modules). After all, full sized XLRs comes with Dual HDSDI, 4 channels of AES-EBU, Two Aux power/GPIO ports, and Lens/RS232.

Of course I'll have a Pro I/O to go with my Epic - to me that's a no brainer. The options that it offers are incredible matched to the Epic style shoots.

Element Technica exists because of the Red One. They went from a couple of guys in a shop to two large buildings pumping out millions of dollars of equipment because they allowed the Red One to conform to industry standards.

In the same way, whoever comes out with a great XLR solution at a low price point will make a killing... so why not have Red do it?

You make a good point and I have no doubt there will be more than one third party who'll jump in to fill any perceived gaps. As for RED, I don't think they are about making the least cost option. I think they are about excellence and high quality - at a "competitive" price. That doesn't mean they can or will produce all possible options - just they ones they think make the most sense. They have limited resources and so they try to direct them where they believe they can add the most value. We can second guess them all we want (and this forum is evidence that we do), but in the end, they have made some pretty incredible products at some pretty incredible price points. It's Jim's vision so he gets to decide!

 

[Rick Burnett]

So your options are either underkill (1/8") or overkill (the I/O modules).

Underkill? Just because it has an 1/8 inch jack instead of XLR? My laptop has an 1/8 jack that I hook into twice a day EVERY day. Guess what, it has NEVER failed and sounds as good as the day I bought it.

Just as the last laptop I had. Just as the laptop before that.

You've got two 24-bit 48kHz ports which is A LOT better than I've seen on many cameras. And somehow the 1/8 jack is a determination of the quality of the converters?

Maybe now we should start complaining about the font SCARLET is written in.

I can understand concerns on what you are getting, but this is getting ridiculous. Until people can actually test the converters OR RED releases the SNR and other characteristics of those converters, trying to equate their quality to the jack attached to them is pointless.

I *AM* a sound guy and this doesn't bother OR concern me one bit. Like I said, I'm glad there isn't two HUGE XLR connectors on the front having cables getting all in my way if I am hand focusing the lens.

 

[Scott Crawley]

So your options are either underkill (1/8") or overkill (the I/O modules). After all, full sized XLRs comes with Dual HDSDI, 4 channels of AES-EBU, Two Aux power/GPIO ports, and Lens/RS232.

Of course I'll have a Pro I/O to go with my Epic - to me that's a no brainer. The options that it offers are incredible matched to the Epic style shoots.

Element Technica exists because of the Red One. They went from a couple of guys in a shop to two large buildings pumping out millions of dollars of equipment because they allowed the Red One to conform to industry standards.

In the same way, whoever comes out with a great XLR solution at a low price point will make a killing... so why not have Red do it?

The system that Red designed and plans to offer is meant to provide you with premium, no compromise results in a system that is a great value. If it still isn't inexpensive enough for you, there are plenty of cheap methods out there. Finding cables with the necessary connectors already on them or having them made for you is one method that has already been mentioned.

I have to agree with Rick about the rampant speculation, RedUser crossed the threshold of reason on that score over a year ago. At the same time I would applaud you Rick on the way you treat your gear, but a 1/8" phono connector is not nearly as robust as XLR... Not by a long shot. It is certainly adequate for your laptop, but for my money it (or mini this, that or the other thing) is inadequate for the camera. I like XLR, and am willing to pay for a good module. But that is just me, and I know that everyone has their own priorities and will exercise their own judgement.

 

[Colin Sheldon]

You make a good point and I have no doubt there will be more than one third party who'll jump in to fill any perceived gaps. As for RED, I don't think they are about making the least cost option. I think they are about excellence and high quality - at a "competitive" price. That doesn't mean they can or will produce all possible options - just they ones they think make the most sense. They have limited resources and so they try to direct them where they believe they can add the most value. We can second guess them all we want (and this forum is evidence that we do), but in the end, they have made some pretty incredible products at some pretty incredible price points. It's Jim's vision so he gets to decide!

I absolutely agree about Red - and I've put my money where my mouth is for both the Red One and Epic.

One of the things that has made Red great is the feedback from the community, and that that was my goal in posting.

After all, if Red does it, it will be something integrated. If a third party does it, chances are it will screw on somewhere which will end up being just plain annoying.

 

[David Rasberry]

No offense taken First of all, I'm glad that I asked about image stabilization. We finally know the answer. Thanks, Jarred! Second, now I understand that I need either OIS or sensor shift, that is "real" stabilization, not post-production tricks that will cause "individual frames will be accompanied by blur in the camera movement direction" - Thanks, Quentin_B. So, I've got all answers that I needed, no sarcasm, honest thanks to all people that explained this stuff to me!

I would wait an see how well Red's image stabilization works. There are 3-axis inertial motion sensors built into the cameras and these are being used for movement reference for image stabilization, so it occurs in camera not in post. But apparently it is meta data attached to the image file that can be used or not as one chooses. Then again some of us have shot for decades with 2/3" or 16mm cameras handheld without any image stabilization.
Do you know of any cameras that actually physically move the sensor for image stabilization? A floating sensor seems like a recipe for disaster to me.

 

[Colin Sheldon]

Underkill? Just because it has an 1/8 inch jack instead of XLR? My laptop has an 1/8 jack that I hook into twice a day EVERY day. Guess what, it has NEVER failed and sounds as good as the day I bought it.

Just as the last laptop I had. Just as the laptop before that.

You've got two 24-bit 48kHz ports which is A LOT better than I've seen on many cameras. And somehow the 1/8 jack is a determination of the quality of the converters?

Maybe now we should start complaining about the font SCARLET is written in.

I can understand concerns on what you are getting, but this is getting ridiculous. Until people can actually test the converters OR RED releases the SNR and other characteristics of those converters, trying to equate their quality to the jack attached to them is pointless.

I *AM* a sound guy and this doesn't bother OR concern me one bit. Like I said, I'm glad there isn't two HUGE XLR connectors on the front having cables getting all in my way if I am hand focusing the lens.

So you go running with your laptop through the woods, after some crazy actor? Or mount it onto the side of a car? Wow, you're much more adventurous with your laptop then I am with mine. Mine just sits on a desk which is something my camera only does when it's taking a breather.

Thing is, we've been here, done this. It was called the GL2 and we were all thankful when the DVX/XL2 came along and spared us the hassle of adapters and converters. Much rather deal with 90 degree connectors then all that.

 

[Rick Burnett]

So you go running with your laptop through the woods, after some crazy actor? Or mount it onto the side of a car? Wow, you're much more adventurous with your laptop then I am with mine. Mine just sits on a desk which is something my camera only does when it's taking a breather.

Thing is, we've been here, done this. It was called the GL2 and we were all thankful when the DVX/XL2 came along and spared us the hassle of adapters and converters. Much rather deal with 90 degree connectors then all that.

Actually, I do take my laptop with me everywhere I go, but I've not run through the woods with it, I'll admit

I'd rather not have the price of the camera be ~$2k more for something I don't need. I have the *option* of using either I/O package if I want.

You're telling me you are comfortable with just hanging the cables off the camera locked in with XLR? Cause I AM NOT. No matter how careful *I* am, a twenty foot XLR cable is ASKING for a foot across it. Even if I had XLR on camera, I'd use an intermediate connection that could break away. I'd rather loose the sound in one shot then having my camera ripped out of my hands and losing a lot more potentially.

Like I said. I am going to make a plate with 2 XLR's to 1/8 TRS that stays mounted. I am then going to use break away XLR cables from there. That way, I never need to touch the 1/8 jacks and if something happens to the XLR plate, I can replace it. I'm sure the XLR plate will cost AT MOST $50 with all parts. That's a pretty good deal to me.

 

[David Rasberry]

So you go running with your laptop through the woods, after some crazy actor? Or mount it onto the side of a car? Wow, you're much more adventurous with your laptop then I am with mine. Mine just sits on a desk which is something my camera only does when it's taking a breather.

Thing is, we've been here, done this. It was called the GL2 and we were all thankful when the DVX/XL2 came along and spared us the hassle of adapters and converters. Much rather deal with 90 degree connectors then all that.

I have a 5 year old GL2 and none of its connectors have ever failed through hundreds of hours of use. There are 50 cent 1/8" jacks and there are $10 1/8" jacks. The really good ones are pretty robust and the contact springs are good for several hundred thousand insertion cycles. I would have no problem using Scarlet's connectors for an on camera mic or wireless receiver, or building a simple low cost XLR adapter to mount to another location on the camera for external connections with no strain on the mini-jacks.

 

[Daniel Valle]

I'm not really understanding this.

Wasn't the basic Scarlet package supposed to have mini-XLR inputs?

 

[Terry VerHaar]

I'm not really understanding this.

Wasn't the basic Scarlet package supposed to have mini-XLR inputs?

Nope. :frown2: