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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Jim, how about a 5K 1000fps camera?

And I wondered the same to Pietro,however the Scarlet and Epic do offer some high framerates so i`m not sure what at which point Jim`s statement that `that`s what the phantom is for`,kicks in so to speak..I`m not suggesting Red emulate the Phantom ie a gazillion fps,simply enquiring into the possibilities and asking,politely i hope,nothing ventured etc..I also recognise the vast and marvelous achievement that Jim and the Red team have achieved thus far,and i`m gratefull for that.This wasn`t a `gimme gimme `post.
 
There's nothing wrong with asking :) How else would RED know what users were wanting. Sometimes, wonderful features get added this way with very little cost to a developer, like small software changes to enhance work flow. I love the fact that RED communicates with us here about the features and future of their products. They do listen AND respond.
 
I agree Rick and here`s the thing..I`m nothing to do with the stills or cinema world at all.I do`nt even own a camera of any sort,yet.But there`s such a radiation of passion creativity and openess from the Red team that i,as a total utter novice can chime in and ask for specific features.So i am.In a way i feel completely out of my depth posting here,but i don`t mind,my instinct tells me that some of Jim`s satisfaction is giving people the tools and opportunity to shoot better and affordably and to engage in that artform,if it were`nt for this i wouldn`t post nor would Red have a customer who,for what it`s worth,may buy 10 cameras a month.Apologies if i`m a bit off topic,just thinking aloud.Thanks Jim.
 
Phantom is far more a niche camera than most RED products. Even if RED did decide to undertake such a project it would likely end up costing as much as a Phantom because of the relatively low number of potential sales. The new Phantom Flex can shoot 2K Uncompressed RAW at more that 2000fps. It can shoot 1920x1080 at 2800fps. Is that fast enough yet? We're working on it.
 
Tom, remember, we're in the digital domain now, Moore's Law is our friend. This will happen, we'll need to wait for it. I predict it'll happen by NAB 2014
 
Mitch Gross said:
Phantom is far more a niche camera than most RED products. Even if RED did decide to undertake such a project it would likely end up costing as much as a Phantom because of the relatively low number of potential sales. The new Phantom Flex can shoot 2K Uncompressed RAW at more that 2000fps. It can shoot 1920x1080 at 2800fps. Is that fast enough yet? We're working on it.
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is it ever really fast enough Mitch? That's why camera makers like Phantom are always pushing it right? Phantom already got their 4k camera to over 100 fps years ago, I trust they'll have a 5k 1000 fps camera sooner than anybody would ever expect :)
 
Actually, Moore's law is going to have some serious problems soon. Microelectronics are starting to reach the width of a few atoms level. I think speed improvements in technology are going to still happen, but not like they have over the past 50 years when we weren't close to the physical limitations of the molecules and quantum affects.
 
Jannard said:
Very difficult trick... even for us.

Jim
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Well, that doesn't sound like a hard "No." :laugh:

Even if Red had to charge, say, $75K for the brain, it would still be much, much cheaper than the Phantom Flex, which comes in around a $250,000+ with everything. Not to mention that the Flex cannot even shoot 5K...
 
Rick Burnett said:
Actually, Moore's law is going to have some serious problems soon. Microelectronics are starting to reach the width of a few atoms level. I think speed improvements in technology are going to still happen, but not like they have over the past 50 years when we weren't close to the physical limitations of the molecules and quantum affects.
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Agreed but there are also a lot of untapped technological innovations that are just in its infancy right now that will probably reset a lot of things. Storage for example will most likely go to the holo prism route. Transistors may yet get to the atomic level, if nano technology is perfected. All really "sci fi movie" sounding stuff, but millions upon millions of dollars are going into the R&D of these technologies. And when we hit the wall with what we currently have, that force of hitting the wall will drive those technologies to push forward even faster.

And when we max out on that? Who knows, I'm nowhere near smart enough to even speculate on that...
 
So very true, as being a microelectronics engineer as I am, I keep an eye on this stuff all the time, it's truly fascinating.

What many people don't realize is that one of the BIGGEST problems with microelectronics today is how much power they use when they are doing NOTHING. (This is called leakage power) due to how small the devices are. I say this in the sense that it is interesting how some advances push us back in other areas.

I just can't believe how small the transistors have become these days. I do this stuff all day long and *I* am even amazed! :)
 
Jannard said:
Very difficult trick... even for us.

Jim
Click to expand...

The biggest problem is: development costs, I had worked for NAC Image Technology during my collage days in 1974 as an apprentice, we had high speed film based camera and developed into 12000 f/s on 35 mm. These days, Nac makes industrial testing equipment manufacture than entertainment event recoding tool, but Nac has commercial 1080 television camera for sport events and used last 2010 Vancouver winter Olympics.

http://www.nacinc.com/
 
Rick Burnett said:
The main limiting factor is the read/reset. Given that it is 5ms, the fastest you could go would be limited by that amount, which is 200fps.

From what I gather from Jim, the design of the circuitry in the sensor doesn't benefit from reading less pixels on a row, but can be made faster by ignoring rows at the top and bottom (which means the read/reset time will reduced since you don't have to go through as many for the read/reset). But, there may be other limiting factors in the design other than the read/reset. But, this also means a lower than 5k image.

This is what Jim said when someone asked about high speed in Epic (which wasn't your request)

http://reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?p=581537#post581537
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Just thinking out loud here. Obviously this would be crazy expensive and make the module fairly large, but, what if the "Epic HS" module had like a hundred smaller sensors (combined to make an S35) with a crap-ton of electronics so each sensor fired off really fast together and then came together somewhere down the line? Would that speed up read/reset?
 
Aaron McAdam said:
Just thinking out loud here. Obviously this would be crazy expensive and make the module fairly large, but, what if the "Epic HS" module had like a hundred smaller sensors (combined to make an S35) with a crap-ton of electronics so each sensor fired off really fast together and then came together somewhere down the line? Would that speed up read/reset?
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It's not so much a sensor issue as it is a massive amount of data issue. If Epic shoots 5K @ 100fps you need to process and store 10 times the ammount of data to get 1000fps.
 
I have wonder why do you guys need/want for 5K Epic 10,000 f/s camera?
If Red Digital Company commits to develop new high-speed camera, they have to deal with licensing agreement and will final product will cost astronomically expensive.
High-speed camera has been developed last 100 years from the A High-Speed Rotating-Mirror Frame Camera by Dr.Berlyn Brixner (Los Alamos National Laboratory) and Dr. Clearcy D. Miller.
Most of the high speed testing camera and newer Digital Media high speed recording camera’s history had been financed by government fund and will continued to develop too newer technologies.
In 1972, Video Logic Co., used record on Ampex's 1" tape has introduced, then, we have Redlake MASD Co., Motion Xtra HG-100K camera, then Brit's DRS Hadland has newer image convertor tube (ultranac) 20,000,000 f/s camera.
I guess that many people like to enjoy watching experimental image, if you are the filmmaker, the best bet are the "rental" these days.
 
`DRS Hadland developed the world's first improved Image Converter Framing Camera which could take pictures at framing speeds greater than 600 Million Frames per second and Streak Cameras with time resolution less than 1 picoseconds.` -Goodness.
 
This kind of speed is Phantom's bussiness, but not for RED, I believe it...
As Panavision, Arri, or Sony don't do it. A very hard and very expensive works for only a bunch of cameras... Make the BEST digital cinema camera, and a lot of incredibly useful innovations for every customer budget it's hard enough.

Jim, do not get you team distracted by fighting for other achievements. It's not your bussiness. You're the best in yours... Just continue doing it!
 
Surely RED can come up with something that competes with the likes of the Phantom. With the incredible cost at around $100,000 +. Come on Jim there's a new business line there for you even if it's restricted to 2k. I'll be the first to drop a deposit!
 
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