Arri Alexa and Mysterium-X...

[Graeme Nattress]

So let's take those comments and reframe them:

"The F35 is not even close to being 1080p, so let's wait and see what happens in 2011 when the "consumer" version comes out"

"To my eye the Sony F35 is not a 1080p even under the optimal circumstances. Technically speaking, it can only be considered to render a 1080p image in each channel with significant vertical aliasing and much less resolution than 1080p horizontally, but as the channels never line up accurately, it's a debate on if it can actually considered a proper RGB image at all."

We're always happy to be fudbusters, because it's through that process that everyone learns. It's not often that the actual people who design and engineer cameras contribute to the discussion, but they are the ones who need to be listened to as they've proven the worth of their words through the images we've all seen looking utterly superb on the large screen.

Graeme

 

[Andrew M.]

One of the bigger misconceptions is that 1080P is really 1080P. We have yet to measure a 1080P camera (including the F35) that actually measures 1.9K.

Jim

1080P refers to the number of vertical lines in TV pictures and here (on REDLand) the horizontal number of pixels is spoken

2K 4K 3.84K (2XHD) etc

 

[Sanjin Jukic]

Alexa, F35 and Genesis are all limited by resolution.

Alexa, F35 and Genesis are all limited by resolution.

One more thing;

You can't edit in frame using resolution weak footage from Alexa, F35 or Genesis.

What does it mean?

1. For example you can acquire your footage with R1 at 4.5K resolution.

2. Then today's the market monopoly rules tells you that 2K is a standard for theater delivery and then you must resize from 4.5K to 2.2K WS @ 2240x960

and then maybe again to resize and crop up and down to get HD WS @ 1920x800.

4. OK, no problem and you can do it.

5. Suddenly during editing you needed one blow up detail from a certain shot but now you can't shoot that again just because of budget restrictions.

4. Then you go in editing room and crop your desired detail from 4.5K original to requested HD delivering size and you are just fine.

Belvedere Gardens Vienna - Shot on R1M with Leica Apo-Summicron-M 75mm f/2.0 @ f/5.6, Formatt filters: ND 0.9, Circ Pola, Hot Mirror, ISO 320, 1/50 shutter

Crop from 4.k original: Belvedere Gardens Vienna - Shot on R1M with Leica Apo-Summicron-M 75mm f/2.0, @ f/5.6, Formatt filters: ND 0.9, Circ Pola, Hot Mirror, ISO 320, 1/50 shutter.

Download here this short example footage >>>

The footage was white balanced, a bit graded, resized and cropped at REDCINE-X, then again in Motion/FCS cropped, a bit sharpen,
then also Color Corrected using GenArts Sapphire FilmEffects plug-in with the effects of
Negative Film Stock Kodak_5245: Eastman EXR 50D, low speed, daylight balanced, very fine grain
and Print Film Stock Kodak_2383: Kodak VISION Color Print Film, rich blacks.

 

[Martin Stevens]

1080P refers to the number of vertical lines in TV pictures and here (on REDLand) the horizontal number of pixels is spoken

2K 4K 3.84K (2XHD) etc

Jim's point is that a 1080P camera does not actually deliver 1080 resolution.

When I first saw the images produced by the Panasonic HVX200
I almost spilled my cup of tea when I realized the horrible truth that
it was not even close to 1080 in resolution, or for that matter, even
a proper 720.

Remember if you transfer a VHS tape to a 4K file, it will still look like hell.

The Red Epic will give us the dream of 5K that actually yields something
above 4K in resolution.......wow!
:rant::rant::rant:

 

[Dexter Gregoire]

One more thing;

You can't edit in frame using resolution weak footage from Alexa, F35 or Genesis.

What does it mean?

1. For example you can acquire your footage with R1 at 4.5K resolution.

2. Then the market monopoly rules today tells you that 2K is a standard for theater delivery and then you must resize from 4.5K to 2.2K WS @ 2240x960

and then maybe again to resize and crop up and down to get HD WS @ 1920x800.

4. OK, no problem and you can do it.

5. Suddenly during editing you needed one blow up detail from a certain shot but now you can't shoot that again just because of budget restrictions.

4. Then you go in editing room and crop your desired detail from 4.5K original to requested HD delivering size and you are just fine.

Perfectly said. I have done that many times. Reframe a shot is so beautifully easy with a 4K R3D file. It actually saved me just as Sanjin said without having to reshoot. I make sure the eyes of my subject are in frame though:thumbsup:.

 

[Jacek Zakowicz]

Optimator test

Optimator test

So let's take those comments and reframe them:


"To my eye the Sony F35 is not a 1080p even under the optimal circumstances. Technically speaking, it can only be considered to render a 1080p image in each channel with significant vertical aliasing and much less resolution than 1080p horizontally, but as the channels never line up accurately, it's a debate on if it can actually considered a proper RGB image at all."

We're always happy to be fudbusters, because it's through that process that everyone learns. It's not often that the actual people who design and engineer cameras contribute to the discussion, but they are the ones who need to be listened to as they've proven the worth of their words through the images we've all seen looking utterly superb on the large screen.

Graeme

Optimator reticule shows very clearly that F35 resolves between 1100 and 1200 horizontal lines. The Optimator test eliminates all the other vaiables from the equation- it strictly tests the sensor performance. Other tests with pointing at a chart have a significant potential for errors as lenses, exposure, color settings will always vary and affect the final result to some degree...
the discrepancy here is a clear example of this...

 

[Graeme Nattress]

Jacek, there is very strong vertical aliasing on the F35, which correlates exactly with what you say - however, such resolution is in no means real, but actually corrupts the resolution it has, as is visible on real world productions using the camera.

Graeme

 

[Martin Stevens]

Hello Graeme,

Just a thought, but perhaps you should change the number 4k to 5k under
your signature, so that its reads....

www.red.com - 5k Digital Cinema Camera

Oh, and I love your work......THANKS!

Also, is your FLUT a 2D or a 3D LUT?
I assume it is 2D.

 

[Graeme Nattress]

FLUT works in as many D as it needs to for the purpose at hand. Good idea on the .sig though!

Graeme

 

[Eirik Tyrihjel]

One more thing;

You can't edit in frame using resolution weak footage from Alexa, F35 or Genesis.

What does it mean?

1. For example you can acquire your footage with R1 at 4.5K resolution.

2. Then today's the market monopoly rules tells you that 2K is a standard for theater delivery and then you must resize from 4.5K to 2.2K WS @ 2240x960

and then maybe again to resize and crop up and down to get HD WS @ 1920x800.

4. OK, no problem and you can do it.

5. Suddenly during editing you needed one blow up detail from a certain shot but now you can't shoot that again just because of budget restrictions.

4. Then you go in editing room and crop your desired detail from 4.5K original to requested HD delivering size and you are just fine.

And NOT JUST THAT....

You shoot a LIVE concert (perhaps with multiple REDs or even Epics starting this fall), in the editing room you realise that a subtle zoom in on the main vocals would be perfect, but it was shot fixed - the solution is at your hands:
You just get your 4K footage, open it in After Effects (or your app of choise) you make that zoom exactly the way you wanted it, export it at 1080p (or 2k) and put it in the timeline... Voila!

OR

You have a 50mm lens on set, but you wish you had a 65mm, well you don´t, so you shoot with your 50mm taking into account that you are shooting 4k (or even 5k starting this fall), when in post, you crop in, export to 1080p (or 2k), and Voila! There is the 65mm you didn´t have...

I love all the options I have with RED, I just love it!
And it keeps getting better!

 

[Scott Crawley]

OR

You are DP on a film and the editor has no clue what good composition is. He re-frames a bunch of your shots and now your work looks like shit. It can go both ways. :-(

 

[Eirik Tyrihjel]

I would never let that happen.

 

[Scott Crawley]

LOL

How do you stop it?

 

[Eirik Tyrihjel]

I OWN my operation ;-)

But seriously, the DoP should always be allowed/able to follow through in post, and make sure his/hers ideas are maintained (in co-operation with his/hers director), either by him/her being personally present or by someone he/she thrusts.

My main point is that this new technology opens up a LOT of opportunities, which can be used to improve the end result, if the production is willing/able to let it happen!

 

[Paul Nordin]

I would never let that happen.

Eirik, How do you prevent it? On small indie shoots, sure you can shepard your work through post production. But on larger budget shoots, and broadcast shoots, once producton wraps we (DPs) seldom get to see the edit, let alone have a voice in editorial decisions. Heck, we sometimes have to fight just to be involvoed in Color Correction!

 

[Eirik Tyrihjel]

Eirik, How do you prevent it? On small indie shoots, sure you can shepard your work through post production. But on larger budget shoots, and broadcast shoots, once producton wraps we (DPs) seldom get to see the edit, let alone have a voice in editorial decisions. Heck, we sometimes have to fight just to be involvoed in Color Correction!

Hi Paul, we posted at the same time, as you can read from above:

My main point is that this new technology opens up a LOT of opportunities, which can be used to improve the end result, if the production is willing/able to let it happen! (IE: hire the DoP to stay through post)

If the production (company) doesn´t have the resources to benefit from the new opportunities this new technolgy brings, they can of course keep on doing it the old fashion way. (At their loss)

 

[Paul Nordin]

Hi Paul, we posted at the same time, as you can read from above:

My main point is that this new technology opens up a LOT of opportunities, which can be used to improve the end result, if the production is willing/able to let it happen!

Well that makes sense. I think maybe production companies are nicer to work for in Norway!? lol

 

[Scott Crawley]

Right, new possibilities, both good and bad. If you only ever shoot for yourself I guess you are all set. You'll only have time to work on a fraction of the films you might have otherwise, but you'll have your control.

 

[Eirik Tyrihjel]

Hi Scott and Paul.

I just think that this business needs to look at the opportunities that opens up (with fresh eyes), and ask themselves how can we benefit from this! Being a small time operation like mine (but serious - and profitable), or being large, there is a lot to be gained.

I think Sanjin made an excellent point in post # 1043, and I followed up in post # 1050.

Example: look at Sanjins example in post #1043, after the shot is wrapped, someone decide they need a closer shot of the stature, and calls a crew to reshoot the thing, while everything they need is already in the shots they originally made.... (Saves a lot of money, if they are willing to see it)

Example2: My post at #1050... you got your angles covered shooting a live show, but you can make it look even better... why not do it? Why stick to the original framing if there are better choises that can be made in post?

These are new situations that arise with high reslutions, those who take advantage of them will win, those who insist on doing everything in camera will be more expensive and less versatile and lose. (i think)

If a production has unlimited resources, I am sure neither applies to them, but there are tons of productions caught in the middle, and RED provides a lot of new options for us!

 

[Van Din]

One of the bigger misconceptions is that 1080P is really 1080P. We have yet to measure a 1080P camera (including the F35) that actually measures 1.9K.

Jim

What about the 5D2? I've heard a lot of DoPs going on this one.