Arri Alexa and Mysterium-X...

[Sanjin Jukic]

Fun to watch all this play out... truly, it is a good thing that there is competition. I've given Arri a pretty hard time here, but I'm honestly starting to feel guilty: all the NAB announcements from Red (and there are surely more to come) make me feel like Arri is actually the "underdog" here.

Who will buy Alexa over Epic?

For sure BBC, ABC, NBC, CNN, ARD, Bayerischer Rundfunk, ORF, many other TV networks globally, world's biggest rentals, etc,...ARRI will probably sell between 250 to 600 cameras for sure... without cameras included in ARRI's own official rental network that could rise the number till about 800 in a first year.

Much much better than before with D20/21...

 

[Roberto Lequeux]

That was hardly considering both sides of the argument.

What about build quality and reliability? How often are there problems with the RED One when firmware updates are introduced and some accessories don't function properly? (Early battery charger, anyone?)

Sure, and back in I don't know when paint had lead...
...are we talking about the first builds of the Red One body?
Or the second hardware generation, with OODLES of ASIC rock-of-Gibraltar reliability?

If your point is that many will be reluctant until the cameras are out and battle tested for a while... then ok. I get your point. It has been discussed to death here. Go ahead, get in on Epic #8,000 + if you want... but those of us who understand, at least bit, the nature of a company with Jim Jannard at the helm... we ain't gonna be hesitating till we are stuck at the end of the line.

Jim needs Epic to be solid... he wants to leap over his success with Oakley. That is a big jump.
I mean, how the heck could you not see that??!!

...in comes the most advanced purpose-built chip ever created.

 

[Steve G]

BBC, other TV networks globally, world's biggest rentals, etc,...ARRI will probably sell between 250 to 600 cameras for sure... without cameras included in ARRI's own official rental network that could rise the number till about 800 in a first year.

Much much better than before with D20/21...

Extremely unlikely that the bbc will buy the Alexa, just as they won't buy the Epic. Large cameras with pl mount lenses just don't fit into their equipment purchase strategies. They don't want the hassle of looking after "full size" cameras and lenses.

The drama dept doesn't have any kit at all. They depend on facility companies for cameras and lenses. The doc/specialist factual/entertainment depts have access to dv cameras through DV solutions (in-house bbc kit company), when they go down the self shot route (ap's/directors/researchers shooting). When using proper camera people, they depend on facility companies and owner operators for cameras and lenses. BBC news dept has a few "proper cameras", but they won't go for Alexa or Epic.

Scarlet fixed lens could be popular with BBC inhouse depts as a replacement for Sony Ex 1/Ex 3/Z1, if they are happy with the workflow.

 

[Eren Ozkural]

The BBC do have a RED.

 

[Steve G]

The BBC do have a RED.

I am sure the engineering dept have 1 or 2 for testing and evaluation, as they will with Alexa, but extremely unlikely that they will buy a number of them for production purposes.

 

[Martin Stevens]

Which means ~14.5 stops for EPIC after downconversion to 2k, thanks to averaging out noise, lowering the noise floor even more.

Sorry to disagree, but downconversion can gain you more
of the useable dynamic range provided by the Epic.
You cannot obtain more DR from a camera via downconversion
if the information is not there in the first place.
:001_smile::001_smile::001_smile:

 

[Roberto Lequeux]

That is the way I saw it, then others called it DR.
It makes sense both ways, since if it is plagued with noise, you can't really use it.
I am no pixel authority, so I'll just look at the pictures see what I can do to them.

 

[Blair S. Paulsen]

Who do you love?

Who do you love?

(snip) ...are we talking about the first builds of the Red One body?
Or the second hardware generation, with OODLES of ASIC rock-of-Gibraltar reliability?(snip)

I was not aware that ASICs were added to the internal boards during the first year of the RedOne's life. I did have my body swapped out, at no charge, sometime in 2008 and of course the audio board and PL mount upgrade, at no charge, later in 2008 (IIRC).

More to the point, both Arri and Aaton (and even Sony) have built trust over decades. No offense to the diligence of the Madman and the RedTeam in creating a robust professional product with the Epic, but there is more than just a brand loyalty component in preferring Arri rigs over Red's offerings. Arri has been making some of the most rugged camera equipment in the world for a long time - they have earned their rep. Jim, Ted, Jarred and everyone else I have talked to at Red has always given Arri their due.

I would be remiss if I did not also give props to Aaton. I had a chance to attend a seminar on the Penelope given by Mitch Gross during the Post Production World conference that runs concurrently with NAB. The build quality and ergonomics are excellent. Aaton has hooked up with whatever is left of Dalsa (engineers, IP, not sure) to create a digital "magazine" for the Penelope (its a very unusual film/digital crossover rig that must be seen to be fully understood) that uses a newer iteration of Dalsa's tech that is a single sensor Bayer pattern CCD design (S35ish in size, exact specs not yet determined) that will be "beyond 4K" in pre-debayered resolution. They showed a 4 SSD RAID pack for onboard recording of RAW uncompressed 10 bit log DPX with a separate proxy recording onto SD card in DNxHD36 with full metadata for offline.

Two significant caveats to Aaton's Penelope program is that the digital back is not expected to ship for another year and the list price is expected to be in the $150K USD range. It does have a damn nice optical viewfinder and with a little bench time and a tech can become an excellent 2 perf or 3 perf 35mm film camera - that's a hell of a parlor trick. In any case I expect it will compete with the OVF Alexa and find its way into rental houses the world over.

Is it worth 3 or 4 times the price of Epic? Time will tell but based on what I have seen so far from the MX sensor and the prototype Epic form factor I think Epic will dominate the professional owner/operator market - particularly since they have cultivated a business identity that appeals to the owner/ops. In rental house world, I expect most of the bigger shops to offer all three plus the Sony 9000. IMHO, how many of each they put on the shelf will be dependent on rental volume far more than brand preference - unless there are major service/repair issues - that's just Business 101.

The really great thing is that we are on the cusp of an era where D-cinema rigs from several companies are going to be of sufficient quality to enable very high production values with operational characteristics oriented more to cinema style than just ENG cameras on steroids. About frakkin' time.

If this discussion is really to handicap the arms race between Epic, Alexa and the others there is one salient point that must be mentioned. All due respect to Panasonic's P2 initiative, RED has undertaken a far more sophisticated infrastructure commitment to a data based workflow. With the growing number of major players natively supporting R3D files, the use of modern compression to control data loads and of course the RED Rocket™™™™; we are starting to realize more of the tremendous potential of a completely digital ecosystem. I think it is fair to say that RED has fundamentally advanced how the motion media business utilizes modern computing power to achieve the holy grail - better, faster and cheaper.

Cheers - #19

 

[Roberto Lequeux]

I realize your post aimed to cover other areas, but apparently I should clarify one of the points I was trying to make.

I was not aware that ASICs were added to the internal boards during the first year of the RedOne's life. I did have my body swapped out, at no charge, sometime in 2008 and of course the audio board and PL mount upgrade, at no charge, later in 2008 (IIRC).

I was not referring to the partial replacement of first generation hardware, but to Epic, the second generation of RED hardware.
There is a reason for the name Red One.

I am wholeheartedly convinced that Jim's top three list includes reliability, and I would bet that it mostly -if not always- sits at #1.

If you want to play in the big leagues, where companies provide cameras to big productions, you have to treat those production's budgets with respect. You can't offer an un-reliable camera. Period. Being an immensely successful businessman, Jim HAS to have been thinking a lot about reliability through the Epic R&D saga.

It makes perfect logical sense to see the free replacements to the first generation as proof that he understands reliability place.
He is in it for the long haul.

 

[M Most]

More to the point, both Arri and Aaton (and even Sony) have built trust over decades. No offense to the diligence of the Madman and the RedTeam in creating a robust professional product with the Epic, but there is more than just a brand loyalty component in preferring Arri rigs over Red's offerings. Arri has been making some of the most rugged camera equipment in the world for a long time - they have earned their rep. Jim, Ted, Jarred and everyone else I have talked to at Red has always given Arri their due........Time will tell but based on what I have seen so far from the MX sensor and the prototype Epic form factor I think Epic will dominate the professional owner/operator market - particularly since they have cultivated a business identity that appeals to the owner/ops. In rental house world, I expect most of the bigger shops to offer all three plus the Sony 9000. IMHO, how many of each they put on the shelf will be dependent on rental volume far more than brand preference - unless there are major service/repair issues...

I think you're being far too rational and clear thinking here.

Nice post.

 

[Jannard]

I was not aware that ASICs were added to the internal boards during the first year of the RedOne's life. I did have my body swapped out, at no charge, sometime in 2008 and of course the audio board and PL mount upgrade, at no charge, later in 2008 (IIRC).

More to the point, both Arri and Aaton (and even Sony) have built trust over decades. No offense to the diligence of the Madman and the RedTeam in creating a robust professional product with the Epic, but there is more than just a brand loyalty component in preferring Arri rigs over Red's offerings. Arri has been making some of the most rugged camera equipment in the world for a long time - they have earned their rep. Jim, Ted, Jarred and everyone else I have talked to at Red has always given Arri their due.

I would be remiss if I did not also give props to Aaton. I had a chance to attend a seminar on the Penelope given by Mitch Gross during the Post Production World conference that runs concurrently with NAB. The build quality and ergonomics are excellent. Aaton has hooked up with whatever is left of Dalsa (engineers, IP, not sure) to create a digital "magazine" for the Penelope (its a very unusual film/digital crossover rig that must be seen to be fully understood) that uses a newer iteration of Dalsa's tech that is a single sensor Bayer pattern CCD design (S35ish in size, exact specs not yet determined) that will be "beyond 4K" in pre-debayered resolution. They showed a 4 SSD RAID pack for onboard recording of RAW uncompressed 10 bit log DPX with a separate proxy recording onto SD card in DNxHD36 with full metadata for offline.

Two significant caveats to Aaton's Penelope program is that the digital back is not expected to ship for another year and the list price is expected to be in the $150K USD range. It does have a damn nice optical viewfinder and with a little bench time and a tech can become an excellent 2 perf or 3 perf 35mm film camera - that's a hell of a parlor trick. In any case I expect it will compete with the OVF Alexa and find its way into rental houses the world over.

Is it worth 3 or 4 times the price of Epic? Time will tell but based on what I have seen so far from the MX sensor and the prototype Epic form factor I think Epic will dominate the professional owner/operator market - particularly since they have cultivated a business identity that appeals to the owner/ops. In rental house world, I expect most of the bigger shops to offer all three plus the Sony 9000. IMHO, how many of each they put on the shelf will be dependent on rental volume far more than brand preference - unless there are major service/repair issues - that's just Business 101.

The really great thing is that we are on the cusp of an era where D-cinema rigs from several companies are going to be of sufficient quality to enable very high production values with operational characteristics oriented more to cinema style than just ENG cameras on steroids. About frakkin' time.

If this discussion is really to handicap the arms race between Epic, Alexa and the others there is one salient point that must be mentioned. All due respect to Panasonic's P2 initiative, RED has undertaken a far more sophisticated infrastructure commitment to a data based workflow. With the growing number of major players natively supporting R3D files, the use of modern compression to control data loads and of course the RED Rocket™™™™™™; we are starting to realize more of the tremendous potential of a completely digital ecosystem. I think it is fair to say that RED has fundamentally advanced how the motion media business utilizes modern computing power to achieve the holy grail - better, faster and cheaper.

Cheers - #19

If we haven't learned from our 1st try (which was a scam BTW), we don't deserve to stay in business very long. EPIC is designed and engineered to electronic specs and mechanical quality that will stand heads up to the best in the industry for reliability and sturdiness. If this proves not to be true... we go away. Just don't confuse firmware updates with camera build quality.

EPIC is RED ONE with some experience...

Jim

 

[Scott Crawley]

I am sure the engineering dept have 1 or 2 for testing and evaluation, as they will with Alexa, but extremely unlikely that they will buy a number of them for production purposes.

You are saying that the BBC bought two cams for testing purposes only? They paid for them and keep them, but don't use them for production? That doesn't seem very plausible. Wouldn't they test first and buy after sucessful tests? Wouldn't it make sense to test a rental?
:blink:

 

[Roberto Lequeux]

If this proves not to be true... we go away. Just don't confuse firmware updates with camera build quality.

Anyone wanna make a bet? Anyone? Anyone...

:crickets:

 

[Stephen Williams]

You are saying that the BBC bought two cams for testing purposes only? They paid for them and keep them, but don't use them for production? That doesn't seem very plausible. Wouldn't they test first and buy after sucessful tests? Wouldn't it make sense to test a rental?
:blink:

Hi,

I can believe the BBC own a couple of cameras, they usually take things to pieces so they know how to fix them when things go wrong. They do a lot of R&D.
As has been mentioned they usually rent equipment for drama productions.

Stephen

 

[Blair S. Paulsen]

If we haven't learned from our 1st try (which was a scam BTW), we don't deserve to stay in business very long. EPIC is designed and engineered to electronic specs and mechanical quality that will stand heads up to the best in the industry for reliability and sturdiness. If this proves not to be true... we go away. Just don't confuse firmware updates with camera build quality.

EPIC is RED ONE with some experience...

Jim

As I noted in my post, I fully expect the Epic to compare favorably with the other cameras in this discussion in pretty much every respect - including build quality and durability. Because of that, and a number of other key Epic advantages (like price point), I stated clearly that I expect Epic to dominate the owner/operator market.

In rental house world they will put them all on the shelf and if the Epic gets 80% of the market it will fill 80% of their shelf space, if it gets 40% of the market then 40% of shelf space. That will be determined by demand and the more robust Epic is, the higher I would expect that number to be. Of course for a lot of experienced DPs, their choice of "axe" from the rental house catalog may reflect personal preferences moreso than some empirical evaluation.

Cheers - #19

 

[Scott Crawley]

Hi,

I can believe the BBC own a couple of cameras, they usually take things to pieces so they know how to fix them when things go wrong. They do a lot of R&D.
As has been mentioned they usually rent equipment for drama productions.

Stephen

Pardon my ignorance, but if they don't have Reds in production why would they have to know how to service them?

If they are not in the camera manufacturing business, and don't have more of the same cameras in the field why would they attempt to reasearch and develop them to that degree? This isn't like an old mechanical film camera that they would be salvaging parts from one mfg's cam to service another brand camera either.

It still sounds like unlikely speculation. The entire notion that they wouldn't use them is ridiculous since they already have Red productions in their library. I have read that they were slow to adopt them, but they have since been embraced by some BBC brass.

 

[Omar Saad]

Sure...happy to help. After Epic and Scarlet ship I'll post many of my concepts for how to use the cameras and make money with them. I've been posting ideas like that about Red One since long before Red One ever shipped.

One of the biggest challenges of these new cameras will be for users to either have or develop broad enough skill sets and attitudes to match what the cameras are capable of. Users with open minds and broad skills will really unlock the potential of these cameras.

You're doing the right things by thinking, planning, asking questions, and developing your skill sets. Once you get your camera you'll be ready to rock n' roll!

Steve, as always you're the man! I'll definitely be following your posts and picking your brain expanding the business should I be fortunate enough to upgrade to an Epic.

As usual, thanks for being generous with your information and experiences!

Best,

Omar

 

[Eren Ozkural]

Hi,

I can believe the BBC own a couple of cameras, they usually take things to pieces so they know how to fix them when things go wrong. They do a lot of R&D.
As has been mentioned they usually rent equipment for drama productions.

Stephen

I can't say any more but the truth is somewhere between buying them for use and buying them for tests.

Ah, using our tax money to buy a RED. Can't blame 'em, can I?

 

[Steve G]

Pardon my ignorance, but if they don't have Reds in production why would they have to know how to service them?

If they are not in the camera manufacturing business, and don't have more of the same cameras in the field why would they attempt to reasearch and develop them to that degree? This isn't like an old mechanical film camera that they would be salvaging parts from one mfg's cam to service another brand camera either.

It still sounds like unlikely speculation. The entire notion that they wouldn't use them is ridiculous since they already have Red productions in their library. I have read that they were slow to adopt them, but they have since been embraced by some BBC brass.

The bbc does of course show Red originated output, ( made mostly by independent production companies contracted to produce output for the BBC) but I am 99 % sure they will not have a fleet of Red 1's, Epic's or Alexa's in the future. They have a couple of reds so that the engineering dept will be able to test the workflow, and look at the engineering side of things. They have spent the last 15 years getting rid of staff crews and in house "top spec" camera kit. They just don't want the hassle of insurance/maintenance/servicing etc that having a fleet of high end broadcast/movie cameras, be they hi def/4k/2k/film entails. They will leave it to the facility companies to purchase the forthcoming cameras.

 

[Scott Crawley]

Ah... Ongoing workflow tests... I see. Thanks for clearing that up for me.