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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

HDR Mode...

Jim, I want to say THANK YOU.

I know this won't be a BS gimmick, and any additional DR attainable will be a HUGE benefit for many situations.

If you though it would be a wise move for RED, I would be very curious to hear what target DR you are shooting for.
 
To Red team,

I thought of implementing HDR using Two MX-Sensor upgraded Red Ones in 3D Rigs(Beam-Splitter) with zero convergence with different exposures for each camera. And then vary ISO / Exposure to create HDR.

How about this?
 
I have come to love the power given by HDR capture, and many times over had the opportunity to captures images otherwise impossible, at times for pure luck of light, and information on the shadows, and at other times simply because impossible to illuminate certain areas of the subjects in frame, to equipment restrictions and or simply budget which did not allowed for the thousands of Watts needed to light up the place properly.

But I love the fact of how you can capture HDR images and have literally limitless options in post to work with while tone mapping and extracting information.

My most looked after use will be with moving subjects such as my models.

I see the speed of the Epic bringing a new experience to the table when it comes to capturing stills, and with HDR is so much more to be exited about, never mind HDR in Motion capture, can't wait for this one.

I don't go for the over Toned look of most, but I do like the saturation of color and information gathering power of HDR as I have done on the image below of "VALLEY OF FIRE" near Las Vegas.

792826512_8BhUp-XL.jpg
 
Jeremy Hughes said:
Wow, so much speculation! I think it's going to be great regardless of the method used. Can I throw out my lighting equipment yet?
Click to expand...

Give it to me, don't throw it away. :-)

A very sensitive sensor does not shape light for you. You'll still need a 4K to fight sunlight, and at least a 650 to fight streetlighting. I find it disturbing how some people still don't get this. Lighting is not simply about getting adequate exposure - any idiot can do that. Do you think serious fiction productions shoot outside during the day with no lights?
 
KETCH ROSSI said:
I have come to love the power given by HDR capture, and many times over had the opportunity to captures images otherwise impossible, at times for pure luck of light, and information on the shadows, and at other times simply because impossible to illuminate certain areas of the subjects in frame, to equipment restrictions and or simply budget which did not allowed for the thousands of Watts needed to light up the place properly.

But I love the fact of how you can capture HDR images and have literally limitless options in post to work with while tone mapping and extracting information.

My most looked after use will be with moving subjects such as my models.

I see the speed of the Epic bringing a new experience to the table when it comes to capturing stills, and with HDR is so much more to be exited about, never mind HDR in Motion capture, can't wait for this one.

I don't go for the over Toned look of most, but I do like the saturation of color and information gathering power of HDR as I have done on the image below of "VALLEY OF FIRE" near Las Vegas.

792826512_8BhUp-XL.jpg
Click to expand...


I think the above is a look/gimmick that could quickly get tired, like CG lensflares back in the day, or that "Matrix-effect" done with strings of cameras.

What will never get tired is nearly infinite dynamic range, 100% adjusteable in post. To me this is the real exciting benefit of shooting HDR.
 
As I said IMO the true power and value of HDR, is a different thing for different people for different uses, has not one, but very many benefits, and capable of producing a multitude of great looking variations of the same image, seasoned to taste unlike any other capture method would allow.

I love playing with light, but creating an image from within an image s it has been possible with digital is very exciting, doing so with the use of HDR is even more exiting, been able to do so in a camera system like the Epic and its insane frame rate will be even more insane, but been able to do so in Motion capture, will be absolutely Magical.

The look of the above pic of "Valley of Fire" was the chosen look, but was just one of twenty produce for this capture.
Saying that HDR look will get tired or old, is not dsureli my opinion, even if it gets abused, Art is Art, and seats in the heart of the Artist, some might like it some might not, but will be Art nonetheless, and a tool at the disposal of the Artist for hit/hers creations.

For me HDR is like Brad, every country that I have been in, makes it in a different way, hell, in my country every town makes in a different way, you have the base ingredient and then you seasoned and add any ingredients that you see fit to your taste to create any type of Brad you like, with Walnuts, with Cinnamon, with Grapes, with Apple, you get the idea..
 
I love the valley of fire picture... But I'm just wondering what tools we'll have to compress the HDR into LDR tonemapped images/footage. We don't even know if we'll have that much range as you did for that picture.

But along this topic, what do you guys do with the Red One currently? Doesn't it capture 12-bit RAW... but when you export to an 8-bit AVI/MOV/MPG you have to compress some dynamic range into the 8 bit? Or am I thinking about this wrong? (E.g. 8-bit has same range as 12-bit, just more banding?)
 
christopher witzke said:
export out an image sequence as 16 bit tiffs....
Click to expand...

But our screens can only show 8 bit (or I mean 3x8 bit aka 24bit) color... so are we losing some dynamic range (on our monitor) that we could see more if we compacted it into 8 bit?
 
Juhan Malmstein said:
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0181865/


http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1103982/


Yes, yes they do.
Click to expand...

Fine, but this is an artistic choice, one that is often not very commercial in its result (ends up looking a little doc-ish in most cases, lacking in "Holywood magic" for my personal tastes.) The Girlfriend Experience was a horrific flop at the B.O., grossing 650K on a 1.7 mil budget. For most people in the audience, this look is depressing and ugly, and they stay away in droves. You can say that you and your filmschool pals are far more enlightened than "the masses" as University professors so pompously call the average hard working person, but I try to be more humble, and feel that my own tastes are not more valid than anyones else's unless I am paying for a production out of my own pocket money.

Business issues aside, not all films deal with the kind of sad gritty content that the Girlfriend Experience does. "Found light" is a single look that has a very specific feel - not at all appropriate for many types of stories - I'm glad there is more than just one way of doing things, and that we can chose. Lighting shapes those choices for us, elaborates them, creatively heightens dramatic moments.
 
Rob Ruffo said:
"Found light" is a single look that has a very specific feel - not at all appropriate for many types of stories - I'm glad there is more than just one way of doing things, and that we can chose. Lighting shapes those choices for us, elaborates them, creatively heightens dramatic moments.
Click to expand...

Which has been true in the past, but having a sensor that has less noise means that the range of usage for "Found light" filming will be different now. But, to even take that a bit further, also given the sensitivity and lower noise of the M-X sensor will mean that for a lot of shooting, you wont need 5 Billion Watt lights to setup the scene. Now to even take that even another step further, with HDR capability, you'll have a little more freedom in how a scene is lit even outside since you won't be losing as much detail due to the differences in the scene.

Technologies like the M-X sensor not only improve visual quality, eventually, if they are that good (and it seems to be from what we have seen), they change work flows or requirements in setting up scenes. This is why I am so excited about this technology. It opens up your window of ability in acquisition and gives more freedom to the cinematographer to work outside the bounds of what has been available previously.

Like, when all anyone shot was black and white film. Then along came color. I see these new abilities, while not as massive an enhancement as that, as analogous in terms of new thinking.

Though I will say one thing, nothing will replace needing light in terms of light as a part of the art form of the shot. The light is an illustrative device as everyone knows in painting the scene and putting focus and mood and feeling. Not to mention bringing things together. It's just now, you can do it a little darker if you want :)
 
Chris Clogg said:
I love the valley of fire picture... But I'm just wondering what tools we'll have to compress the HDR into LDR tonemapped images/footage. We don't even know if we'll have that much range as you did for that picture.

But along this topic, what do you guys do with the Red One currently? Doesn't it capture 12-bit RAW... but when you export to an 8-bit AVI/MOV/MPG you have to compress some dynamic range into the 8 bit? Or am I thinking about this wrong? (E.g. 8-bit has same range as 12-bit, just more banding?)
Click to expand...


Thanks Chris, for this one I use Capture one 5 Pro, Lightroom, Photoshop CS4 and Photomatix Pro.

But as far as what we will sue with RED's HDR mode on either Stills and or Motion, that will depend entirely on what RED will deliver, again, Jim stated already that they will bring a different HDR mode to us, like no other out there, so anything goes here.

Also I suspect that there could be an integration of some kind of mapping capacity via a curve or wheel or a plug in, or directly included in the UI of the Redcine-X, but we only have to wait and see what RED will deliver us, and what their vision of HDR is for their products, I'm some how confident that we will, yet once again be blown away by it, so like you and any one else excited about this I will wait and see..
 
Rob Ruffo said:
Fine, but this is an artistic choice, one that is often not very commercial in its result (ends up looking a little doc-ish in most cases, lacking in "Holywood magic" for my personal tastes.) The Girlfriend Experience was a horrific flop at the B.O., grossing 650K on a 1.7 mil budget. For most people in the audience, this look is depressing and ugly, and they stay away in droves. You can say that you and your filmschool pals are far more enlightened than "the masses" as University professors so pompously call the average hard working person, but I try to be more humble, and feel that my own tastes are not more valid than anyones else's unless I am paying for a production out of my own pocket money.

Business issues aside, not all films deal with the kind of sad gritty content that the Girlfriend Experience does. "Found light" is a single look that has a very specific feel - not at all appropriate for many types of stories - I'm glad there is more than just one way of doing things, and that we can chose. Lighting shapes those choices for us, elaborates them, creatively heightens dramatic moments.
Click to expand...

It's funny, I am the exact opposite. I feel that most films are lit in a way that makes them look fake, yes "Hollywood Magically" but hardly realistic. I saw the girlfriend experience and I thought that the cinematography was great and I often felt like I was right there. It did not flop because it looked bad but because no one knew about it, it had no notable actors and any press it did get was centered around the fact that it was a semi mainstream film centered around a prostitute played by a real life hardcore pornstar. Anyone who did know about it stayed away from it for the above reasons. The artistic decision to film with available light was one of the films appeal and if you read reviews, critics either liked the look of did not seem to mind. Films like the Hurt Locker and The Thin Red Line prove that available light can be just as good if not better than staged lighting in the right situations. I wish more would experiment with it. I don't know how many times I go to the theaters and say to myself, "In a real situation, the light would never look like that". Again, most don't notice it but I do and it can get a little frustrating. Roger Deakins is the best when it comes to making artificial light look real. He often complements available light with artificial to maintain a realistic look that is somewhere in the middle, not perfectly realistic (documentary) or overly forced (Any film by Michael Bay).
 
Then again there is available light and there is "available light". I would say the GF experience falls into the latter. Most of the locations I've seen in trailers and what not had really great aesthetic lighting out of the box. Just goes to show the importance of great location scouting/set design.
 
Gavin Greenwalt said:
Then again there is available light and there is "available light". I would say the GF experience falls into the latter. Most of the locations I've seen in trailers and what not had really great aesthetic lighting out of the box. Just goes to show the importance of great location scouting/set design.
Click to expand...

100% true. If you are going to attempt an all or mostly available light film, then location selection will be the most important aspect. I worked on a project with all available light (with some bounce material for additional lighting and for some of the scenes), we picked locations that had good lighting and then did a time lapse over the course of the day to see when the lighting was optimal and then shot during that time the following day (we lucked out that the whether stayed the same.) Granted, this is not practical but it allowed us to nail the optimal shooting times for the look and feel that we were going for.
 
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