Thoughts on RED and Color

[Ben Brainerd]

-EDIT- Removed since from here it degraded to an unpleasant argument. -/EDIT-

Oh, and regarding the iPad. Not a super-big fan myself. At least not for its billed purpose. But apparently great minds think alike. Right about the same time I was thinking "Hey, that would make a great control interface. Kinda a mini Wacom Cintiq", Stu Maschwitz was posting this on his blog: http://prolost.com/blog/2010/1/27/make-movies-with-apple-ipad.html And now Other-Ben is suggesting it for Color. Would be cool to make it happen.

 

[Cüneyt Kaya]

Maybe Ben H. hasn't done a feature, but I'm in the middle of coloring a RED feature right now. Well, it's kinda on hold. ("What do you mean you're changing the entire first reel?") But I haven't had any problems with Color.

I think comparing a $1500 software package (FCS) to a $15000 package (Smoke) is a bit unreasonable. That's an order of magnitude of price difference. And more more than myself, or a lot of indie operators, are going to be able to spend anytime soon.

Oh, and regarding the iPad. Not a super-big fan myself. At least not for its billed purpose. But apparently great minds think alike. Right about the same time I was thinking "Hey, that would make a great control interface. Kinda a mini Wacom Cintiq", Stu Maschwitz was posting this on his blog: http://prolost.com/blog/2010/1/27/make-movies-with-apple-ipad.html And now Other-Ben is suggesting it for Color. Would be cool to make it happen.

your 1000 dollar vs 15 000 is not in relation to the hardware you need.

to colorgrade you need a proper monitor which is in the thousands, and an aja kona 3, which is again in the thousands, and a decent mac with raid, a tangent etc. lets say you pay around 18k - 20k usd for such a mac pro...
plus 1000 dollar for color, another grand or two for AE, gluetools, sync an link, shake and donation for clipfinder, if you have money left you get a RED Rocket™™™™™™™ too, another 4500 bucks...dont know...but if you are willing to pay 20-25+ grand on a station and work with workarounds ect, it makes sense, if its your main business to add another 15 k and get smoke.

you can build a decent redrocket/color macpro here to see the prices
http://silverado.cc/shop/product.php?productid=1430
which are competitive inmho

really i used color a lot, but now i am looking for new ways to save time on a project. And a indy who can spend 25k on a macpro is not in the starving artist area.
i am really interested in your opinions guys.

because i really want to pull the trigger on smoke...but if you can convince me i am more than happy to keep the money in my pocket...hehe

 

[John-Michael]

David,

I agree with everything you have said and maybe need to clarify myself a bit. I actually would consider myself part of that elite group as the Sr. Producer for a high-end DI and VFX house. However, we also enjoy serving clients with budgets in the 1-3 million range. These project have very capable people who have very good ideas of what they can and can not do. Yet, it is always unfortunatel when I tell the producer the can't afford to have their dailies graded on set... or that the F-Lut is great, but won't be fully supported across a standardized DI flow (which is what they can afford...) for another 8 months so their footage won't look as good as something else they may have seen... or we can use the F-Lut function but it is going to take 5 times as long to turn around dailies as we'll need to individually grade and render in realtime rather than copying immediately rendering on a farm capable of 3x realtime...

Maybe this is more of an expectation vs. reality check.

And yes, I can't wait for Hans to implement the new SDK to a scripted solution!

 

[Ben Brainerd]

-EDIT- Removed as it degraded to an unpleasant argument. -/EDIT-

 

[Cüneyt Kaya]

I just don't see the point in spending as much on a single software package as I spend on my entire rig.

I'm in the process of building out a Color station right now, so here's some numbers:

(Quoting retail here, since I'm not on the computer that has all my reseller quotes on it)

Mac Pro 8-core 2.66ghz, 6GB RAM, 640GB HD (Apple.com): $4700
Extra RAM, HD (Estimated): $1500
Tangent Wave (B&H): $1500
AJA Kona3 (B&H): $2500
HP Dreamcolor 24" (HP.com): $2000
Apple FCS3 (Apple.com): $1000
RedRocket+Breakout box: $6000

Total: $19,200

Call it $20,000 because I like nice round numbers, and probably forgot something. Heck, call it $25,000 and throw a nice Quadro FX card in there.

So again, why should I spend another $25,000 on a software package when I've got a system that *works*? Offline/Online isn't a "workaround", it's an accepted fact of life in the business.

with a raid between 8 and 12 TB and the software call it almost 30 k.
i dont mean offline-online is the workaround....the workaround is that you use

redcine x
fcp,
clipfinder (workaround no.1)
ae, (half workaround, so no2)
color (it is buggy no matter what you say, just check the official bug list of apple, but there are workarounds, so no.3)
compressor

six programs just for the sake of workflow?

and with your system you have spend 20- 25k and still have to wait for renders! man that is so lame in my opinion...

i guess if you spent nearly 30k on hardware and software and have the workflow listed above, it sounds very reasonable to me to spend another 15 and get all in one box. 40-45k instead of 30k


but lets forget the hardware for a second:

your sentence "I just don't see the point in spending as much on a single software package as I spend on my entire rig" is a huge one.
sofware is not "worthless" because its coming on a CD, ok i understand, with hardware you have something in your hands, which you can sell easily if needed, with software on macs its very tricky...its difficult to understand that 15000 dollar smoke can be worth 15xtimes more than Color...but it really is worth more (i wouldnt mind if it would cost 5000 though)...you just get rid of so many headaches, more updates, better support, mature software...look at scratch...hell, i had some deathmatches with Lucas about Scratch, but now i see...what you get with softwares like scratch and smoke is no wonder feature, you can do all with fcs and ae, but you gain TIME and ease of workflow.

(i did enjoy one scratch-avid-scratch workflow)

you buy time and get rid of most workarounds.

but usually you have a lot of time when you have no money...so i love Color for what it is...my point is that if you use Color, you shouldnt spend 20-25 k on Hardware!!!....if you do, it means you have money, but not enough, why through 15-18k usd at computerstuff which will cost the half in 2 years....you only should do it, if you can get your money back in 6-8 months.

 

[Ben Brainerd]

-EDIT- Removed as it degraded into an unpleasant argument. -/EDIT-

 

[David Cox]

Color Space and Gamma Space?

Color Space and Gamma Space?

Nick,

We had access to all the new color science and FLUT™™™™™™ algorithms for grading the M-X footage for Jan 16th Red Day .... don't know when it's going to be on general release .... it was definitely an 'engineering build' and we had to be careful how we used it .... but have to say the combination of the new M-X sensor, Graeme's FLUT™™™™™™ science and the Apple Color plug-in was worth all the work-arounds and crashes. At the end of the day, what the sensor can capture and what we can extract from Red RAW in post is critical to digital filmmaking ... it was a masochistic kind of joy to see the full DR of the sensor revealed on the DI screen ... there was no mistaking that the tone mapping of the new sensor is considerably smoother than the RED One and the old color science ... mid range skin tones are far more subtle and realistic.
.

Neil,

A question about the color space and gamma space you chose for your demonstration. Let's say you were going to HD for master. In Color, did you stay with
REDcolor and REDgamma or did you use some combination with Rec709?

 

[Cüneyt Kaya]

Tell you what. I'm done here. Why don't you explain to *me* two of your statements?

Bearing in mind that that list in my last post is *money I have in the bank, ready to spend in the next month*. Not a loan, money I've earned using your supposedly worthless program.

"its difficult to understand that 15000 dollar smoke can be worth 15xtimes more than Color ..."

for me it was...

"my point is that if you use Color, you shouldnt!!!spend 20-25 k on Hardware...."
this is a whole sentence, sorry for my limited english, it should be
"my point is that if you use Color, you shouldnt spend 20-25 k on Hardware!!!"---edited in original post

meaning that if you cant have RT in CC its pointless to try to get near RT whith spending 20k on hardware...i definitly rent a suite to get my shit done instead (baselight right now)



this ia another sentence.
"if you do, it means you have money, but not enough."

meaning, for me its stupid to invest in all ass. like ajakona3, tangent etc. while knowing the software is not on par (RT) with the hardware i use.
i use fcp as what it really is, a good offline editor for cheap, macpro, storage fast enough for Prores only, cheap computer monitors, no aja, no 10bit monitor, no whatever...build under 6k usd, perfect.

that you have your money on the bank is really good, up to today i never bought something on debts or loan too.

anyway...if you want to spend 20k on hardware for COLOR, good for you. one question though.

lets imagine there is a colorist as good as you, you are totally equal.
a smoke/baselight/Clipster/Scratch whatever CC Software session costs with that type of guy around 1400 a day here (including Colorist), a COLOR session? dont know, i have to guess, because i dont know a single COLOR Colorist, because everybody has Color at home and think he can do it by himself...but lets say 400 for the maschine and another 500 hundred for a 8 hrs session for you, ok? so thats 900 per day....80 % of the people i know would choose the smoke/baselight/Clipster/Scratch whatever CC suite.

there is only one dude i know who gets 1400 a day while grading with combustion...you pay for his skills only..if he should sit behind a heavy iron, it crosses the 2300 bench easily, he is doing it on combustion, just for the fun of it and to prove its possible ( he is super fast and super good, maybe comes from his background as artist and past in the R&D department of a big CC Company, he is one in a million)

Ben, Color doesnt make you Low End, it just take patience which i am not ready to pay anymore, so difficult?
And that you start to insult me tells a lot about you...no pro behaviour dude

 

[Ben Brainerd]

I'm going to take a pass on the rest of this argument, since that's all it is, an argument.

 

[Neil W. Smith]

real shame ...

real shame ...

Was really starting to enjoy this thread .... not sure now ... am seriously considering not posting any more ... real shame - I've learned so much from RedUser.

Jarred, is there any way we can have a thread that stays on topic without going off track? ... there are many people in the RED world-wide community that we need to hear from without degenerating into distracting distractions?

Neil

 

[David Battistella]

Was really starting to enjoy this thread .... not sure now ... am seriously considering not posting any more ... real shame - I've learned so much from RedUser.

Jarred, is there any way we can have a thread that stays on topic without going off track? ... there are many people in the RED world-wide community that we need to hear from without degenerating into distracting distractions?

Neil

Can I second this. There is so much threadjacking going on. How can that be resoloved? It's a big problem. There is so much noise here sometimes. I have found that you really have to wade through these forums to get to the crux of the info.

When threads are answered they should be closed.

Not everyone has learned online ettiquette.

People need to treat the forum as if you were standing in a circle with other people. I am always forgetting this at times myself, but I try to keep things positive, constructive and upbeat.

There are many that want to argue the benfits of hardware or software, ponificating or puffing up feathers.


David

 

[Ben Brainerd]

I sent a PM to Neil, but I guess I should make a public statement as well.

I apologize for my part in the little divergence/threadjacking that went on here. Been kinda stressed out the past few days and I let my buttons get pushed. Going to try and limit my responses to answering questions and well-reasoned discussion from here on out as opposed to getting drawn into arguments.

 

[David Battistella]

Ben,

NO worries. You have made a great contribution here. I have found myself getting short with people as well. The best way around it is to be specific and helpful. That is what I try to do.

David

 

[Ben Holmes]

Neil - FWIW web forums are almost always confrontational on some level - there's a subtle difference between debate and argument, especially when you cannot assess the person you are debating with. They may not even speak the same language as you....

None the less, REDUser is unique in my experience - amidst the noise there is a tremendous amount of knowledge and goodwill. Most of all, the unique combination of the highest and lowest budget ends of film and tv making brings as much joy as pain. Take heart - we've all enjoyed this conversation - I even liked the bickering a bit...

To sum up, for me, Color remains a shining beacon in an enviroment where we persuade clients to trade up to RED, and a sensible tool for short form
promo work for me. It enables me to produce more work of which I can be proud, charge a little more, and use familiar equipment I already paid for. I look forward to the day when I am aware of it's shortcomings - for surely then I will be able to purchase what I'm
sure are better tools. I'm also pretty sure that software Smoke is the death knell of heavy iron as surely as FCP and AVID killed the tape suites I learnt to edit in.

Ain't change wonderful.