Calling Epson...

[Bob Gruen]

I think there are a few things being overlooked here, the first of which being the human eye...

Who is really going to buy such a projector in the near future? I think the market will be limited to post houses (if the quality is good enough), large conference rooms that want to have screens that are really effective, and major high-dollar home theater implementations (only if content is made available or up-scaling tech fills in).

The human eye is what it is. You have to ask yourself: how much detail can you see on a screen properly sized for the average living room? How will this content be delivered? (Satellite services already limit most of their HD broadcasts to 720 to preserve their bandwidth.) Will anyone allow their movies to be delivered to a home in a true master quality format? Will there be an up-scaling technology that can really fill in the gaps on the fly? I have a 47" Westinghouse 1080p TV in a relatively small living room, and in terms of RESOLUTION for the home, I think that going beyond 1080p will be a hard sell to the consumer. Especially if there is little to no content available in that format. Content comes from an industry, and they have to choose to support the format.

Don't get me wrong, I think Epson will make money on this product, but I don't think it will lead to the consumer grade products that people on this thread are wanting.

IMHO, the best thing that can happen for a lot of us on this forum is for a 4K projector technology to come out that dramatically reduces the cost of theater implementation. My understanding is that the cost of the current consortium-based projector system is distributed across the many components that make up the system, and that every company that has a component in the system is sort of basing their prices relative to each other which has caused the price to drift dramatically upwards (well, our decryption engine is as important as the projector itself...).

The second best thing that can happen is for the quality to be good enough that a 4K grading quality screen can be had for around 30K installed. That could spawn a lot of small digital post houses that can show Red content to customers which would allow for more camera rental sales.

Bob

 

[Stuart English]

Epson 4K

Epson 4K

Epson is pretty much the industry leader in LCD panel technology for front projection.

If you buy a Panasonic or Sanyo projector for example, it will use an Epson panel.

Pretty much everyone except Sony uses Epson LCD panels I think. And of course Epson offer their own projectors too.

That, plus their comments about non-cinema applications, makes their 4K LCD panel announcement very interesting.

 

[Stuart English]

4K projectors

4K projectors

I believe that there will be multiple applications for 4K outside consumer (medical, advertising etc), but just looking at that use -

I think there are a few things being overlooked here, the first of which being the human eye..

You have to ask yourself: how much detail can you see on a screen properly sized for the average living room?

The eye can certainly see that resolution, provided you are sitting close enough. A media room is probably a better example though.

It's just a viewing angle issue. If you sit too far away, or the screen is too small, then you many not perceive the extra resolution.

How will this content be delivered? (Satellite services already limit most of their HD broadcasts to 720 to preserve their bandwidth.)

The average bandwidth needed for 4K RED RAY is already half that of the ATSC's recommended 22Mb/s MPEG-2 data rate for HD signals.

I think that going beyond 1080p will be a hard sell to the consumer. Especially if there is little to no content available in that format.

Can't see why resolution would be a block to consumer acceptance, agreed that price and content availability certainly would be.

My understanding is that the cost of the current consortium-based projector system is distributed across the many components that make up the system, and that every company that has a component in the system is sort of basing their prices relative to each other which has caused the price to drift dramatically upwards

The price of any projector is fundamentally driven by the cost of the panels, size of optics, and very importantly the size of the light source.

If you are building a projector that needs to output 12,000 lumens to light a 30 foot cinema screen, it will be expensive irrespective of resolution.

However the same resolution projector at 2,000 lumens will be much less expensive to produce.

 

[Graeme Nattress]

I remember walking past the Astro monitor display at IBC a couple of years back, showing the NHK 8k content downsampled to 4k - it really demanded attention. It stopped you and made you look, even though in many ways the content is not compelling.

There is, of course, no reason why the angle of view in a home media room be any smaller than in a top cinema, and I'd say that viewing quality is even more critical in that home environment where it can be set to optimum for a mere handful of simultaneous viewers.

Graeme

 

[Petri Teittinen]

Pretty much everyone except Sony uses Epson LCD panels I think.

JVC uses D-ILA which is based on LCoS, the same as Sony's SXRD. JVC announced a 1.27" 4K D-ILA panel back in June 2007.

That, plus their comments about non-cinema applications, makes their 4K LCD panel announcement very interesting.

My largest home theater has a 12-foot wide screen and the first row of seats is only 6 feet away. I could sure use a 4K projector (and content) with excellent motion resolution there :drool5:

 

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Many of the 720p, and even more so for 1080p, projectors on the market are using DLP systems. Personally, I prefer the DLP projectors over the LCD ones. Or at least the 3-chip DLP. TI announced a 4K DLP system about 2 years ago, about the same time as the 4K D-ILA announcement. AFAIK, no quadHD/4K DLP has been demonstrated yet.

Of all the projectors out there in the "budget" price range or essentially $10K and less, the Planar 1080p DLP (prosumer Barco) produces the nicest picture. I would put it up against any other projector in terms of overall image and color reproduction. Unfortunately it has one glaring issue. It shows noticeable screen "tearing" effects. It's a known issue with this unit and with a few of the other low-cost 1080p 3-chip DLPs (Sanyo being one that has terrible sync issues and tearing) for some reason.

Anyway, didn't mean to hijack the thread. I'm really looking forward to what Epson's new 4K LCD system can do. There are tons of applications outside of cinema. Medical / scientific imaging, satellite imagery and mapping, surveillance, law enforcement, military uses.

 

[Christopher Nagel]

Mmmmmm.... bigger-than-life-sized 5k porn...in slo-mo... :drool5:

With my movie consumer hat on, I am still watching DVDs on my Sony Trinitron, with no compunction about sticking in a VHS tape from time-to-time, and I **LAUGH** at the BluRay ads...

On the other hand, playing Dragon Age Origins (or using Blender) would be AWESOME with my entire wall as the video screen!!

Chris

 

[Notis Benos]

The average bandwidth needed for 4K RED RAY is already half that of the ATSC's recommended 22Mb/s MPEG-2 data rate for HD signals.

You certainly nailed the issue. This makes me hijack the thread and wonder once again what's keeping Red from releasing Red Ray and turn the world upside down. I can't imagine it has to do with hardware issues, as it's been demonstrated already.
1.Is it cost related?
2.Is the release of a 4K projector like the Epson one what you 're waiting for?
3.Does it have to do with patents and preventing competitors of stealing the technology before you 're ready for mass production?
4.Or are you going to release it together with the Epic and Scarlets and maximize the impact?

This will kill Blue ray for sure, if the price is right, but also will dramatically change pirate movie sharing, thus studios' nightmare.

Edit:

RED RAY is coming along very nicely... We will try and add some information to the end of November announcement.

Interresting!

 

[Karl Gustav H.]

You certainly nailed the issue. This makes me hijack the thread and wonder once again what's keeping Red from releasing Red Ray and turn the world upside down. I can't imagine it has to do with hardware issues, as it's been demonstrated already.
1.Is it cost related?
2.Is the release of a 4K projector like the Epson one what you 're waiting for?
3.Does it have to do with patents and preventing competitors of stealing the technology before you 're ready for mass production?
4.Or are you going to release it together with the Epic and Scarlets and maximize the impact?

This will kill Blue ray for sure, if the price is right, but also will dramatically change pirate movie sharing, thus studios' nightmare.

Edit:
Interresting!

IIRC, the demo of Red Ray was only a test of the codec, played on 'commodity' hardware, as opposed to the dedicated ASICs the shipping product would likely use.

 

[Gavin Greenwalt]

I think there are a few things being overlooked here, the first of which being the human eye...

The human eye is what it is. You have to ask yourself: how much detail can you see on a screen properly sized for the average living room?
Bob

I can see single pixels on my 1080p 52" screen from about 6'. ClearType helps a lot but I could definitely stand going higher. Not to mention I would love to be able to have 1080p on the screen + an interface to work with it.

Maybe that's not a normal consumer demand but imagine PIP 1080p. Imagine football games where 1080p is broadcast in the center with live player trackers on the side. See who's open in a virtual top down view.

 

[Bob Gruen]

I can see single pixels on my 1080p 52" screen from about 6'.

You're sitting 6' away from a 52" screen?

 

[Axel Mertes]

I think there are a few things being overlooked here, the first of which being the human eye...

Who is really going to buy such a projector in the near future? I think the market will be limited to post houses (if the quality is good enough), large conference rooms that want to have screens that are really effective, and major high-dollar home theater implementations (only if content is made available or up-scaling tech fills in).

[..] Bob

I mentioned it earlier:

After JVC introduced their 4K projector about 1.5 years ago, I met up with the JVC sales manager. He told me at that time about 10 units had been sold to home theaters, regardless if it is usefull for them, just as being the top-notch hardware (ie. "mine is better than yours..." attitude of the buyer). At the same time no single unit has been sold to professionals.

As I am not JVC I have no idea if that is still a correct "relationship" between the two sides, consumers vs. professionals, but a rich consumer pays easily for something like that, while a professional will always ask "what is it good for?", regardless of the price. Here in germany we have about two 4K enabled DCI conform theaters IIRC, so "what is it good for to grade in 4K for just two screens?" On the long term that will change, for sure.

Some long time ago I made a prediction to say that HD will grow in Europe from bottom to top, ie. first the consumers will have HD, and after that the broadcasters and professionals will follow. From todays perspective this is totally true. HD hasn't really been introduced (so few stations, many did some tests, many dropped it after a while), HD is basically a "pay tv" thingy over here at this point.

I am willing to make another prediction:

We will see major amounts home installations of 4K enabled hardware before a wide range of 4K screens may become available in germany. And I bet that rules for most parts of Europe, at last.

Expect 4K 30" displays in a few month...

Cheers,
Axel

 

[Axel Mertes]

I remember walking past the Astro monitor display at IBC a couple of years back, showing the NHK 8k content downsampled to 4k - it really demanded attention. It stopped you and made you look, even though in many ways the content is not compelling.

There is, of course, no reason why the angle of view in a home media room be any smaller than in a top cinema, and I'd say that viewing quality is even more critical in that home environment where it can be set to optimum for a mere handful of simultaneous viewers.

Graeme

Hi Graeme,

I do well remember that particular Astro screen presentation. Compelling image quality, even with rather unspectacular footage.

Best scene to me was that herd of japanese half-naked guys moving that giant dragon among that place. A fun for the anti-terror-teams: Everyone can be identified by face...

I just hope we can get this on our homes before our eyes get old and tired, and do resemble only SD anymore...

Cheers,
Axel

 

[Peter Majtan]

I think that going beyond 1080p will be a hard sell to the consumer. Especially if there is little to no content available in that format. Content comes from an industry, and they have to choose to support the format.

Hey Bob - I think HD itself is a good point-in-case against Your argument. For example in Mexico ALL public broadcast is still in SD and there are only very few selected satellite/cable channels that offer programming in HD - and that only if You pay extra (which again is not a very common thing in Mexico). Yet sales of HD plasma TV's are huge. Most HD TV's now include good scalers that upres the SD to HD with noticeable difference. You can expect the same with 4K and 4xHD displays...

:devil: Peter

 

[Michael Smith]

Last Christmas I bought myself a Sony Bravia VPL-HW10 front projector. It's 1080p and it looks amazing! My screen is about 12-13 feet across and I generally sit about 18 feet away from it. But you have to get less than 2 or 3 feet before you ever see 'pixels.' 4k would probably look even more amazing, but of course it would depend on the source material. Even at 1080p quality on my projector completely depends on the source.

Take Dark Knight, which is about the best I've seen anything look on it. It's great demo material. The IMAX shots look a LOT better than the rest of the film footage. How can that be? The whole film source is theoretically higher density (resolution) than my projector. But the IMAX shots are so much crisper than the rest of the film and make my projector shine (screenshots in the links below). Maybe they devoted more bitrate to those shots on the BD? Or maybe it has to do with the lens?

But I believe that higher resolution source material is going to look better on 1080P than just a 1080P source. This is why I'm NOT getting a 7D and am waiting to buy a scarlet. If I'm going to shoot an indie film, projected or not, I want to shoot it at higher than 1920 because it will make the final product look much better. Scarlet footage shot at 3k, edited at 3k, effects at 3k, mastered and THEN downscaled to 1080p will look much better on my projector than 7D footage shot at 1080 using a lossy codec, then transcoded to something you can edit in, etc...

For those interested - here are links to my opinions of the sony projector, with photos...

http://www.tomorrowland.com/2008/12/25/review-sony-bravia-vpl-hw10/

http://www.tomorrowland.com/2008/12/26/sony-vpl-hw10-part2/

 

[Jeremy W]

This will kill Blue ray for sure, if the price is right, but also will dramatically change pirate movie sharing, thus studios' nightmare.

You nailed it right there. The studios would never provide content for a format that wasn't teeming with DRM.

 

[Richard Weinberg]

Epson 8k + 4k-3D projector showing in Tokyo w/RED 4k-3D

Epson 8k + 4k-3D projector showing in Tokyo w/RED 4k-3D

Today (11/19/09 in Tokyo) at InterBEE (~ the NAB of Japan ), Epson showed a prototype of their 8k projector, which can also project 4k stereo, in a small theater in their booth on the show floor. The theater, about 75 feet from the RED booth, seats about 16 people in two rows. I sat in the front row, about four or five feet from the rear-projected screen, which measured about 10 feet by 5 feet, roughly. Yes, quite close. The 8k images were simply stunning, as was the 4k stereo. They showed an amazingly detailed stereo cityscape, most likely Tokyo, and an 8k short that I had seen before on NHK's ultra-high definition system, the short with the kids jumping off the bridge into the river. One other 8k scene, looked like a close shot of a Japanese float that one might see in a parade, with rich color, texture and depth. Even without it being a stereo shot, it had quite a 3d feel to it.

There was a 4k stereo clip of a Japanese character in traditional, colorful, garb, making the very slow movements characteristic of Japanese theater.

The Epson representative said the 4k stereo was shot on a stereoscopic RED One camera rig, so RED footage has made its way onto Epson's latest prototype projector already, and in 4k stereo! It looked beautiful.

The projector is a prototype; Epson would not say when it would be a shipping product. I hope it's soon! It was a very exciting experience.

You can see the demo tomorrow, Friday (11/20) at InterBEE at Makuhari Messe, Tokyo, Japan, at the Epson booth. If you're in Tokyo, don't miss it, or the RED booth, either!

And check out Element Technica's RED stereo rig while you're there.

Richard Weinberg
RED One #447

 

[Stuart English]

Epson 8K / 4K demo

Epson 8K / 4K demo

Thanks for that report Richard.

 

[Jeff Kilgroe]

8K, wha???

Great report, I'd love to see it. Hopefully we get a real product out of this prototype in the not too distant future.

 

[Petri Teittinen]

Thank you for that, Richard. My accountant got the heebie-jeebies while I was reading your post.