WARNING: RED has -3 stops less latitude than the D-21&F35

[Irmeli R]

Scenario-3

Next year in October 2010 someone will notice that sanjin hasn't posted for months - he wonders where he might be. then a fellow austrian cinematographer will tell us that sanjin lost his marbles and is currently locked up in a funny farm outside of vienna constantly mumbling something like noctilux..noctilux..noctilux in his straight jacket.

 

[Daniel Reichenbach]

Scenario-3

Next year in October 2010 someone will notice that sanjin hasn't posted for months - he wonders where he might be. then a fellow austrian cinematographer will tell us that sanjin lost his marbles and is currently locked up in a funny farm outside of vienna constantly mumbling something like noctilux..noctilux..noctilux in his straight jacket.

Hehehe, sorry, Sanjin, but this is funny ;-)

 

[Peter Moretti]

I can verify the results of the shootout on the Hands On HD workshop. My Red One (and 3 others) were involved and we saw some strange behaviors on all 3 cameras.

A copy of the original RAW material (and DPX-Sequenzes / ARRI RAW) is on my personal HDD and I will try and get some more information out of the tests when I find my time.

Under the given conditions (judging Redlog VS C-Log VS S-Log) there was no doubt the Red was lacking at least 2.5 stops. I will try some different post-routines, but with our grading system on the workshop the D21 (rated 200 ASA) got more latitude in highlights AND shadows than the Red One (320 ASA, build 20 / 21 beta) both on wide open Master Primes, conformed on a low-light / high contrast nightshot with a fire-breather.

On (unfiltered) 3200K it went even worse, but I think Geoff will get there in detail soon...

Unfortunately I'll be out shooting stuff the next 3 days, but I'll watch this thread closely for possible questions.

Geoff,

I think you've mentioned something very significant to all this. It's that in all likelihood, their test also used one of Sony's log gamma curves.

That IS Sony's way of adding more latitude, esp. w/ 10-bit color depth. Essentially the sensor has a lot more DR than 10-bits can capture linearly w/ a standard acquisition gamma curve. So Sony's solution is to use a type of logarithmic gamma curve.

Some love it and some don't. Michael Mann refused to use it on "Public Enemies" while shooting the F23 and EX-1, which goes a long way to explain the shadow noise.

I unsubscribed myself from the CML awhile ago b/c I couldn't deal with all the emails. But if anyone can post some more information about the test, that would be nice.

Anyway, I doubt the best offerings from Sony or ARRI are going to be any cheaper than many multiples of what Red costs, so I think a little perspective may be a good thing for everyone here. ARRI and the highest-end Sony's are priced to rent; Red's offerings are priced to buy or rent.

 

[Stephen Williams]

Why not just add a daylight filter (or a half) in front of your lens, if you wish to tungsten-balance the camera?

Hi Elki,

You loose speed & quality.

I don't agree with your definition of DR, I am only interested in usable DR.
Latitude is the amount +/- from a mid point that still gives an acceptable result to the user in question.

Best,

Stephen

 

[Peter Moretti]

Hehehe, sorry, Sanjin, but this is funny ;-)

But two years after that, when the sequel to "District 9" is release, Sanjin will be the DP, and he'll have the last laugh.

 

[Eki Halkka]

You loose speed & quality.

You lose speed, yes, but the same happens if you do it in-camera.

And you won't lose quality, but actually gain some, as the blue channel will be properly exposed.

I don't agree with your definition of DR, I am only interested in usable DR.

It's not "my" definition, it's "the" definition.

PS: it's "Eki", not "Elki"

 

[Alex Carr]

There are many other ways to properly expose the blue channel. A Blue Filter is not the answer since the weakest one takes 1 1/2 stop off the Lens. You need more light!!! And what happens is you end up not being able to properly expose at all, because you can't afford those lights on a particular budget. And 80C + 80D don't balance you to 5000K more like 3800-4200. So you need tungsten 12ks instead of just getting 4k HMI's

Also I've noticed from many tests, the Red is 300 ASA Camera. Expose for white and the Camera Matches a Spot meter, Forget about the 18% Gray, when do we ever shoot anything that is specifically 18%??? Brick buildings, the Sky and fresh green grass are close to 18% reflectance But how do you ever know for sure?? We should be referencing White and skin tones, not 18%. We know the reflectance of White, we know the reflectance of Skin tones. We never know what 18% grey is without a chart. Thats why it shouldn't be referenced.

 

[Axel Mertes]

Hi Axel,

isn't the RedOne effectively a 1080p/2K camera? How many 4K cameras are out there... One reason why the RedOne holds up so well is the power of oversampling, IMO. Here I heartly agree. But since the comparison standard is 1080p and oversampling is part of the RedOne's technology we compare oranges, to oranges, IMHO

Hans

Hi Hans,

we both know we see the RED as a perfect 2K/HD camera, as then it holds up pretty perfect against 3 chip designs and their prism flaws

Anyhow, we should examine what was tested here to be able to judge on it, especially if customers of us point to it (we are in germany, so that may be the case). As I said, if one shoots a frame on the F35 and then on RED ONE, both full resolutions, the noise floor of the RED MUST be worth than the F35, otherwise the sensor would be really a "mysterium" (physics-wise).

Honestly I agree with the often mentioned idea that for us "RED owners" it isn't really important how much better the "one family house" priced Sony F35 is versus our RED ONEs. As long as we can make the images we want and need, we are satisfied. OK, I need to take a little more care when exposing, but I can have the house for (almost) free then. Good deal.

Sorry to say so, but IMHO Sajin's "warning" is both useless and annoying. Why? Well, useless, because no one can make a sensor that much better so quickly. Sensor design take several month. Sensors reach the limits of physics. You know how deep I am into this. I am damn sure RED tried to make the best possible payable sensor for the given time, so "warning" them not to release it if it doesn't match a users wishful expectations or possibly third parties comparison results, does neither help RED (because they can't do much about it, except taking a long time and a LOT of money to make the even better and way more expensive sensor that would solve Sajins wish but push the RED in the price region of the F35) nor us users, because we wait for EPIC cameras to arrive, to start working with, because they show some advancements in feature over RED ONE that we can at least make use of. It annoys me that one of us - the RED user base - raises the hand against upcoming product releases WITHOUT any idea of what will really come, sensors dynamic range wise. But that all is just my perspective on it.


Axel

 

[Sanjin Jukic]

Scenario-3

Next year in October 2010 someone will notice that sanjin hasn't posted for months - he wonders where he might be. then a fellow austrian cinematographer will tell us that sanjin lost his marbles and is currently locked up in a funny farm outside of vienna constantly mumbling something like noctilux..noctilux..noctilux in his straight jacket.

Hehehe, sorry, Sanjin, but this is funny ;-)

By the way I do not owe Leica 50mm Noctilux older or newer version.

Also it is interesting phenomenon that some people use forum like this or internet in general to try out

to impose their bad taste or even to insult somebody without any reason.

That's all about that "bad taste" and provincial "Schweitzer" kind of humor from the country that

do not have any sense about it.

They also can claim that they are highly educated and so on but that more tell you about certain

trends with that sort of "petite bourgeoisie".

Now I shouldn't recall some masterpieces from the film history...

But they can't do anything to me at all and I'm laughing to them from my neighborhood of the Viennese Belvedere Garden close to their's (CH) embassy :001_tt2: :biggrinjester: :smilielol5:

 

[Stephen Williams]

Hi Eki,

Placing a glass filter in front will cause a loss of quality.

'The' definition is of no practical use to a cinematographer, that's why I & others test for ourselves

Stephen

You lose speed, yes, but the same happens if you do it in-camera.

And you won't lose quality, but actually gain some, as the blue channel will be properly exposed.



It's not "my" definition, it's "the" definition.

PS: it's "Eki", not "Elki"

 

[Sanjin Jukic]

Sorry to say so, but IMHO Sajin's "warning" is both useless and annoying. Why? Well, useless, because no one can make a sensor that much better so quickly. Sensor design take several month. Sensors reach the limits of physics. You know how deep I am into this. I am damn sure RED tried to make the best possible payable sensor for the given time, so "warning" them not to release it if it doesn't match a users wishful expectations or possibly third parties comparison results, does neither help RED (because they can't do much about it, except taking a long time and a LOT of money to make the even better and way more expensive sensor that would solve Sajins wish but push the RED in the price region of the F35) nor us users, because we wait for EPIC cameras to arrive, to start working with, because they show some advancements in feature over RED ONE that we can at least make use of. It annoys me that one of us - the RED user base - raises the hand against upcoming product releases WITHOUT any idea of what will really come, sensors dynamic range wise. But that all is just my perspective on it.


Axel

One more example of a "clever one" that knows everything about what's coming up from RED behind the curtain.

Getting pretty boring to listen and read this type of notions...