I bought a new Mac Pro and I'm PISSED!!!

[Will Keir]

2x 2.93GHz Quad-Core Intel Xeon (Nehalem) process
8 Gigs of 1066 MHz DDR3 RAM
GeForce GTX 285 1 Gig graphics card

So top of the line, best I could buy 2 months ago.

Now I'm editing red footage, a test project.

I have final cut studio 3, and I read the white pages and setup a custom preset sequence. I'm dropping my RED footage on the timeline after log and transfer in native with the quick time wrapper and immediately I have to render. Then I finish the render and start cutting. Any changes/cuts to a clip puts a new render bar back up top and it's time to render again.

Anyone that edits knows how annoying and pains taking this process is...

I spent $10,000, I have I to render every time I'm cutting? My Macbook Pro did just as well of a job, and by well I mean slow as hell.

Is there something I'm doing wrong?

Thanks for any advice that could ease my frustration and get me back on track.

Will Keir
production@theridgeboys.com

 

[Zachary Marsh]

There's a few things that will help in general.

The ATI 4870 has much better benchmarks than the GeForce, ATI has a better codec for handling video so even though it's older it's still doing better. That's a small thing since the GTX 285 is still fairly solid but it would help.

Did you set the timeline to Unlimited RT?

Are you pulling the data from an external drive or is it on your actual machine?

Getting an solid state drive (SSD) will also speed up your computers ability to read RED footage from the hard drive. These don't fit normally into the Mac Pro case so you have to custom it just a touch (the slot is bigger than most SSD's so you just need to strap it down is all). RAIDing 3 SSD drives will significantly enhance your machines speed and reading abilities.

Some of these are basic but just wanting to make sure.

 

[Greg M]

Are you using Log and Transfer to render prores files? Once you create the prores files you wont have to render again.

 

[NateWeaver]

Is there something I'm doing wrong?

Yes. You're not reading the documentation with the FCS Red plugin suite.

Go read it.

 

[sander kamp]

My workflow (with FCP 2 and 10.5):

1. Render everything out to prores 1080 half debayer normal using Clipfinder. This works very fast because it uses all your processors, you can do some basic color correction and it looks very good. Prores edits a lot easier than native files.

2. Put out an XML file of your edit from FCP and use Clipfinder again to replace the prores files with quicktime proxies.

3. Send the time-line with proxies to Color to do color grading on the R3D files

I don't know about these white papers. I't some time ago I had a look at it but it had some strange recommendations in it.

 

[Gunleik Groven]

Hm... There must be something odd with your setup.

I have an early 2008 8x2,8 and edit from Cam proxies (no L&T) with no problem.

What's your disks like? Do you have a separate media RAID?

 

[Julian Banos]

How fast are the hard drives your editing with? Work with the fastest you can.

 

[Stefan Christou]

This is a workflow problem, not a hardware problem. Why not have a go with Avid MC and Metafuze? Free trial is available from Avid, link is on the right hand side.

 

[Will Keir]

Yes. You're not reading the documentation with the FCS Red plugin suite.

Go read it.

Nate,

Where do I find this material? Red plugin suite?

 

[Will Keir]

Are you using Log and Transfer to render prores files? Once you create the prores files you wont have to render again.

No, I am using Log and Transfer in Native mode. I'm doing this because I heard you have more color information to work with when using the Apple Color and REDCODE. Perhaps editing with REDCODE is the problem, and it's just not possible to do without dropping frames?

Will

 

[Will Keir]

Did you set the timeline to Unlimited RT?

Yeah, unlimited RT

Are you pulling the data from an external drive or is it on your actual machine?

The drive is my internal 7200 drive, with a boot camp partition.

Getting an solid state drive (SSD) will also speed up your computers ability to read RED footage from the hard drive. These don't fit normally into the Mac Pro case so you have to custom it just a touch (the slot is bigger than most SSD's so you just need to strap it down is all). RAIDing 3 SSD drives will significantly enhance your machines speed and reading abilities.

Good idea, but I wonder if a SSD raid would require the use of the apple raid card, which I have and I wish I could sell back to them. Can't use boot camp with it plugged in. My original setup included the apple raid card, and 3 SAS 15,000 rpm drives in a raid 5 config.

I'm also running a 30" monitor at 2600x1500ish. I wonder if I used a 20" with a lower resolution if performance would improve? I tried editing using the native REDCODE, maybe even the best Mac Pro out there able to handle REDCODE native?

 

[Stefan Christou]

Again this is a workflow problem. I think you need to look into an offline>online workflow. Looking at the hassle you are going through trying to do the whole thing online, I think your energy might be better spent actually editing, you wont see much difference in the footage while editing offline anyway (depending on how you transcode it off course). It's not like you will be colour correcting as you go along, and you can always re-link for when you want to work in colour with the original footage.

Why not have a good look through the Apple workflow section: http://reduser.net/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=20

 

[Will Keir]

Hm... There must be something odd with your setup.

I have an early 2008 8x2,8 and edit from Cam proxies (no L&T) with no problem.

Hello Gunleik,

You edit the proxies? Which ones? The four in the .RDC folder with the R3D file inside? Which one of the four do you use? small, medium, full, etc..? How do you use them? Drag and drop, do you not use log and transfer? Have you tried editing the R3D files with Log and Transfer?

What's your disks like? Do you have a separate media RAID?

I am using a single 1TB 7200 internal drive, which also has a boot camp partition on it. Even so, the kind of hardware I'm running, I should be blowing my Macbook Pro away, and so far, I'm quite disappointed. Thanks for any help you might offer.

Also, on your website... I like that you specifically tried to test the RED and do shots that others said would be difficult to achieve. In your "NightVision" test, there is some obvious noise, but the shot of the clown/homeless guy was quite well done and popped off the screen, and the noise levels seem nonexistent.

What camera settings and workflow were used to create this single shot?

 

[Will Keir]

How fast are the hard drives your editing with? Work with the fastest you can.

Julian,

I tried a RAID 5 setup with 3 SAS 15,000 rpm drives but when the apple raid card did not allow a boot camp partition I went back to my 7200 1tb internal drive.

Have you been able to "log and transfer" the native REDCODE clips and edit with them without dropping frames? If so, what is your setup build?

I have such a powerful system, does FCP rely heavily on the speed of the discs and could a 7200 rpm drive limit me so severely?

 

[Paul Jay]

Whitepaper

Whitepaper

You're paying 10.000 because you bought a graphics card you don't need.
Do you have dedicated SATA drives for your media?
If you are working in native mode. Check your RT settings.
If you want super smooth editing then Offline in ProRes. After Online (R3D quicktime native) in Color. or reconnect.

RED en FCP Whitepaper
http://lmgtfy.com/?q=final+cut+pro+RED+whitepaper

Have you installed the latest plugins from the RED Support site?
http://www.red.com/support

Your problems are mainly user related.
You shouldn't be pissed at your Mac

Good luck.

 

[Brian D. Goff]

No, I am using Log and Transfer in Native mode. I'm doing this because I heard you have more color information to work with when using the Apple Color and REDCODE. Perhaps editing with REDCODE is the problem, and it's just not possible to do without dropping frames?

Will

That's why I'm moving back to Premiere. I'm so tired of apple letting it's pro users down on RED. I just completed some stuff on PP and wow! Working directly with the r3d files off the RED drives, zooming into the 4k raw files, reframing, cc, linking to after effects and back - IT SIMPLY WORKS! And so much runs in realtime! The only thing I'm missing is FCP's smoothcam plugin. If you can, give PP a try you will be delighted.

 

[Will Keir]

Again this is a workflow problem. I think you need to look into an offline>online workflow. Looking at the hassle you are going through trying to do the whole thing online, I think your energy might be better spent actually editing, you wont see much difference in the footage while editing offline anyway (depending on how you transcode it off course). It's not like you will be colour correcting as you go along, and you can always re-link for when you want to work in colour with the original footage.

Why not have a good look through the Apple workflow section: http://reduser.net/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=20

"offline>online" meaning do the offline first, then come back for the online. So I'm trying to edit with too high of a quality for smooth playback? I was wondering if anyone out there, with a similar system is getting smooth playback. If no one can do it, then I must offline first. Or upgrade a few things, inevitably RED Rocket™™ for $4,000.

My desire was to see, in full quality, the clips I am editing without having the render, and for what I see to be lossless, to never drop frames. I thought $10,000 and the faster Mac Pro available could get me there. I'm still not sure if I'm that far off. Thanks for you input Stefan.

 

[Will Keir]

Your problems are mainly user related.
You shouldn't be pissed at your Mac

Good luck.

Ah, that's good to hear. Then my demands are too high for my hardware? I cannot edit REDCODE native files directly?

Then my 2nd option would be to "log and transfer" as ProRes422HQ and editing to my hearts content? (I saw "log and transfer" because this is what the FCS 3 white pages released by RED recommends, if there is a better way, I'll learn)

Then I'm a little unclear, send the project to color for the grade? Or is there a step I'm missing? The re-conform? Would you know of a place to find a detailed description of this step?

Thanks for your input Paul,

Will Keir

 

[Jörgen Persson]

Ah, that's good to hear. Then my demands are too high for my hardware? I cannot edit REDCODE native files directly?

Then my 2nd option would be to "log and transfer" as ProRes422HQ and editing to my hearts content? (I saw "log and transfer" because this is what the FCS 3 white pages released by RED recommends, if there is a better way, I'll learn)

Then I'm a little unclear, send the project to color for the grade? Or is there a step I'm missing? The re-conform? Would you know of a place to find a detailed description of this step?

Thanks for your input Paul,

Will Keir

As long as you use Log and Transfer you can send the timeline to Color. Log and Transfer creates a unique ID for the clips which isn't present for Red Quicktimes created in other applications. Follow the directions in the whitepaper and you will be fine. I have used it for a short film and it worked great.

 

[Will Keir]

As long as you use Log and Transfer you can send the timeline to Color. Log and Transfer creates a unique ID for the clips which isn't present for Red Quicktimes created in other applications. Follow the directions in the whitepaper and you will be fine. I have used it for a short film and it worked great.

Jorgen,

Did you render the files to ProRes422HQ in "log and transfer?" Have you ever tried the "native" option which is basically a QT wrapper around the REDCODE?

If so, was playback smooth?