New RED policy...

[Peter Majtan]

...The exception would be something we need a lot of customer feedback on (like Scarlet & EPIC)... but even then we'll try to get closer to completion before talking about it and asking for feedback...

Jim, with all due respect - wouldn't that be counter-productive? If You only ask for feedback "close to completion" - it might be too late to "react" to that feedback. I think some of the major changes in the program were based on this feedback and transparency - and more importantly Your unique ability to listen... In my opinion that is worth putting up with the "impatient ones"... I know there is competition to think about and that would be a lot more "justifiable" reason for the silence. But then again You don't have to "justify" anything. Either way it has been one hell-of-a-ride and I, for one, am enjoying every single second of it... It is not easy to strike a balance between this contradictory "aspects" and You are doing a damn good job!!!

:thumbsup: Peter

 

[Lauri Kettunen]

I agree. That's why we are taking a modified approach and not completely abandoning the philosophy.

Not in a position to say which way the communication should be handled, but was, again, pretty impressed yesterday when noticed that Stuart was commenting on the bug reports of build 20. Then later on Erik from Birger gave some feedback as well and eventually issues which followed from the Birger-Red i-data interface were sorted out in theafternoon, and that was Sunday morning in your time in Northern America!

More precisely, this particular example just reveals that the developers, 3rd party vendors and users of Red are all engaged to the development process.
My still photographer colleagues, Canon and Nikon users, all shake their heads for disbelief of such stories. Just yesterday one guy replied that all other camera manufactures would have sold the old camera with build 20 in new garments. As long this engagement is there, things should develop in a good way.

 

[Steven Caesare]

Steve... there is a lot of truth in your post. Transparency is a good thing only as long as the troops fully embrace it, including the hard part (schedule). Some want us to be unconventional in all ways that include them in the process and understand that the schedule is a moving target "depending". Others like the sound of the concept but seem to revert back to "but you said and I need it now". It is easy to see why no company will try this transparency thing. It is very difficult to pull off. Our goal now is a modified approach, somewhere in the middle. We'll see how that goes.

Jim

Indeed... I can see why you would say "enough of this nonsense" after a while.

Thanks for trying to find a balance that will continue to include us, yet not drive you too nuts or make you decide to rip off a spate of "Good For You's" to the impatient posters... :wink5:

-Steve

 

[Jun-Dai]

Jim, with all due respect - wouldn't that be counter-productive? If You only ask for feedback "close to completion" - it might be too late to "react" to that feedback. I think some of the major changes in the program were based on this feedback and transparency - and more importantly Your unique ability to listen...

Maybe he should take a different tack:

"So let's see… if we were to build a camera, and I'm not saying we will, how would you feel if we included X?" Or do the Apple thing and have someone send fuzzy iphone pics of prototypes to engadget to see how people here react to the possibly authentic announcement.



I don't mean that entirely seriously, but at the same time there are surely ways he can take advantage of the popular support and enthusiastic community to learn things and excite people without explicitly spilling the beans on what Red intends to put out and when they intend to put it out.

 

[Ben Ponce]

This means Red is becoming solid. It's the right decision to make from a business stand point. I know because I was one of the fanboys who drifted over from DVXUser and immediately got hooked on the Red One talk. Was trying to work my magical ways with my finances and was going to get a Red One (still might now). That was until they announced Scarlet. This got everybody all excited but worse yet put unreal expectations out there I think when an estimated availability date was placed on it. Regardless it made me put off buying a Red One and play a waiting game for a Scarlet. In the end a much better option for me that Red was sharing this information with everybody but maybe not so good for Red because they lost the Red One sale. Seeing all these new movies shot on Red One though is tempting me....

 

[Hrvoje Simic]

We now find ourselves not wanting to talk about a lot of things currently in development. But you should know that there are a ton of things going on behind the scenes.

If this decision is based on your peace of mind during R&D, and competition - fine.

But going forward we are not likely to announce or give out dates of things we are working on until just before they are ready. The exception would be something we need a lot of customer feedback on (like Scarlet & EPIC)... but even then we'll try to get closer to completion before talking about it and asking for feedback.

Not giving out dates = good.
No pressure, no expectations, no bitching.

Not announcing stuff = can be good AND bad.

Among thousands of ideas and requests during development you WILL get very usable ones. Closing that channel will cut that off.

Customer feedback may be too late in some cases, where you may eventually loose time, nerves and money improving something that could have been on desired level in the start. If you choose to go that route only, beware that you are loosing "the edge" you currently have. One of many, but still...

Again, if there are more and more elements about which you don't want the competition to know, and this is the main issue, then by all means - you do that.

We really appreciate our customers and their patience with us as we are building a camera company from scratch. It has been much more complicated and difficult than ever imagined. We are always trying to find ways to improve our business. That includes how we communicate with our partners and customers.

Jim

Just try not to move in direction of closing channels.

Transparency is a good thing only as long as the troops fully embrace it, including the hard part (schedule).

Sorry, but...

No.


Wisely selected amount of transparency (RED type) is a good thing. Period.
Whether all the troops are embracing it or not.

If the choice of policy became conditioned by "being fully embraced", no policy would be good enough.

Some say this and that. Bla bla. Who cares.
At the end of the day, when you see that miracle of technology you and your crew brought from a dream to life, that metal box capturing time and telling stories, bringing positive feelings to many, that's all that matters.

There will always be uninformed, over-eager, over-thrilled, sceptic, flame throwing, trolling...etc...you will never get the 100% support, what ever you do and changing this policy just for the sake of reducing bitching would be a bad move, IMO.

If you guys are fed up with the transparency enabled unwanted stuff, as little of it there is, that just means you are getting numb on the positive input.
Please don't tell me that you prioritize bitching folks when choosing company policy.

Some want us to be unconventional in all ways that include them in the process and understand that the schedule is a moving target "depending". Others like the sound of the concept but seem to revert back to "but you said and I need it now".

So ?

You are not Santa. Although you do bring some toys...

It is easy to see why no company will try this transparency thing. It is very difficult to pull off.

Yes...it's much easier to create O's.....and make a 4K motion picture camera.

Our goal now is a modified approach, somewhere in the middle. We'll see how that goes.

Jim

You guys have all the support, love and respect regardless...you deserved it.

 

[Scott C.]

...was going to get a Red One (still might now). That was until they announced Scarlet. This got everybody all excited but worse yet put unreal expectations out there I think when an estimated availability date was placed on it. Regardless it made me put off buying a Red One and play a waiting game for a Scarlet.

The same could be said for thousands of others, I'm sure. So in the future be tighter with release dates until you are closer to nailing them, and for the present make the Red One upgrade path less limited to keep units moving and relieve some of the release pressure and hype anxiety.

Can we have a Red One - Scarlet path please?

Why not offer a trade in credit toward any future purchase? I should think that module sales alone could make the program economically viable so long as they were priced right. Another benefit of a liberal trade in program is that more Red Ones will return home to momma, fewer will end up on E-Bay and the company can better protect their market value by setting a decent price for refurbished units. That is better for the company, and all of the users who choose to keep their Red One.

Edit: My basic assumption has been that a Scarlet FF35, fully tricked out would be comparable in price to a complete R1... is that incorrect?

 

[Howard Shaw]

The similarities between RED and Apple in this instance are hard to ignore. Extraordinary high technology, driven by design and the user experience, led by a singular vision for excellence and innovation. Most people in our chosen field, film, video, multimedia are accustomed to the product cycle in hardware and software development, for every new advance, you wait--make a buying decision with the information at hand, depending on your business needs. What is here NOW is what is available to you as a tool. No amount of wishing, speculating, hoping, cajoling is going to make the technology work properly in order for it to be effectively productized. We are lucky and in my case grateful for the high degree of transparency RED exhibits. Perhaps a quartely report or a formal schedule for us to learn about the latest developments, similar to WWDC? I for one applaud Jim and team for enough belly button gazing to adjust, tweak and reconsider strategy along the way. Way too much uneducated opinion and foolish banter here at times, which I am sure pulls the wizard and his magicians away from the task at hand. They're building the camera of the future from the ground up folks, and driving innovation and catch-up imitation from the competition. As a business comms professional, I applaud this apparent closing up the circle a bit. Let the toy shop do its thing. When the new stuff is ready, we will be here.

 

[Roberto Lequeux]

Jim, with all due respect - wouldn't that be counter-productive? If You only ask for feedback "close to completion" - it might be too late to "react" to that feedback. I think some of the major changes in the program were based on this feedback and transparency - and more importantly Your unique ability to listen... In my opinion that is worth putting up with the "impatient ones"... I know there is competition to think about and that would be a lot more "justifiable" reason for the silence. But then again You don't have to "justify" anything. Either way it has been one hell-of-a-ride and I, for one, am enjoying every single second of it... It is not easy to strike a balance between this contradictory "aspects" and You are doing a damn good job!!!

:thumbsup: Peter

I think he will listen to everyone closer to release date... while people like you, Peter Jackson and other lucky fellows in various positions, with various measures of knowledge, will be consulted early on. Just a guess, but Red's rollodecks has grown exponentially just as their technical knowledge.

 

[Isaac Brody]

This makes much more sense. Too much transparency ahead of time doesn't really give you any leeway when unforeseen obstacles crop up. And I know that I would rather not hear about stuff until it's almost ready to ship than to read shiny PDF's at the inception. We want to see the baby not hear about it nine months in advance.

 

[Roberto B]

Let the toy shop do its thing. When the new stuff is ready, we will be here.

we?.. who?..

less the thousands who will buy canon in the meantime?..

less the thousands we all need for an affordable scarlet?..

don't you see how all this thing is a quite of a shot in our own feet?!!

do you need a picture to see?.. there's no scarlet yeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeet

 

[Gavin Greenwalt]

Some want us to be unconventional in all ways that include them in the process and understand that the schedule is a moving target "depending". Others like the sound of the concept but seem to revert back to "but you said and I need it now"
Jim

Easy solution. You just need a "spoilers" section. If people want to read wild and irresponsible speculation they can read that. If not they can.. gtfo and read everything else.

Anyway I'm confused why people here are generally happy about this. I don't care if Sony steals RED's ideas. That just means more camera options for me. I can clearly see why Jim would want to keep things under wraps. But I don't see why I should be happy about it. Not that I think Canon knowing what's coming would really help them since they can't even figure out that 24p is important...

 

[Peter Majtan]

I think he will listen to everyone closer to release date... while people like you, Peter Jackson and other lucky fellows in various positions, with various measures of knowledge, will be consulted early on. Just a guess, but Red's rollodecks has grown exponentially just as their technical knowledge.

While I feel flattered You think I have "measure of knowledge", I don't get any privilege treatment like PJ does. Even the RPP's - You got to shoot with them day before me... :devil:

Peter

 

[D Fuller]

I just want to chime in here and say that what you guys -- Jim and the RED team -- have done is astonishingly good, both from a technology point of view and from a community POV. If we really have the business demand for it, we can use RED One today. If we don't have the cash to buy, we can rent. If we can't afford to rent, then we don't really have the business demand, do we?

I recently worked with a Director/DOP on his first RED project. A 30-year veteran commercial/doc/feature director, he was so impressed that he is considering buying a pair of RED Ones for a documentary project. It's great technology. It's here now. And it costs less anything in my own 30-year career tells me it should.

Scarlet/Epic is an ambitions project even in good economic times. It's got to take every bit of fortitude the RED team can muster to execute in the face of this economy. I'm making pictures every day -- sometimes with RED, sometimes with other cameras -- and I'll be here when the next generation is released. It'll be worth waiting for.

 

[Don King]

Anyway I'm confused why people here are generally happy about this. I don't care if Sony steals RED's ideas. That just means more camera options for me. I can clearly see why Jim would want to keep things under wraps. But I don't see why I should be happy about it.

I don't think that the people here are generally happy about this. Not with a silent majority, should mean something no?

 

[David Rasberry]

It has only been a short year and 3 months ago that the first Scarlet 2/3" concept version was shown at NAB. Then RED solicited input from this and the Scarlet forum on what we would like to see in our ideal "3k for $3k" camera. There followed a six month period of lively and fertile debate that culminated in a complete new modular design approach to what is arguably the first comprehensive ground up design of a 21st century digital camera system. There followed another couple of months of suggestions, debate, commentary, with most of us I think feeling privileged to be a small part of such a monumental undertaking. Meanwhile RED 1 performance and work flow was improving by leaps and bounds thanks to the input of users, RED teams own intense commitment and the participation of many third party providers. All of this is feeding into the developing modular systems. Then the Dec 3rd announcements with price and performance targets for the "brains". Followed in relatively short order with new design prototypes, first images from the test prototypes of the 2/3" and S35 sensors, now break through performance improvements for RED 1 due to Graeme's color science program.
If RED is sticking pretty close to their original timeline with a few months delay, we likely will see the first production cameras before the end of this year. Little more than a year from the first announcement of the modular system and less than two years from the original Scarlet concept. This is a very short time frame for such an ambitious undertaking, especially in the dicey economic conditions of today. If it stretches to two years so the new cameras can take best advantage of the latest in electronics tech advancements they will be even better for it.

Some of us can wait, and will.
Some have project commitments that will force them to buy something else affordable to use in the interim.
Some will be too impatient to wait and will try other interesting new products like the 5D and GH1 in the meantime.
But I don't think any of us who have had even the most brief exposure to the RED 1 and its capabilities and have even modest means to buy an entry level system will walk away from this most unique product line when it is finally available. The market will be there in spades.

 

[sbcooler]

Whatever you decide is fine by me. I love some transparency and info periodically, but ultimately whatever makes you guys at RED happy is fine by me. I am an Apple fan and there secret stuff works for them. I like what you are trying to pull off. It's hard but I love it. I have learned more from this forum than any other place or person about video.

Again whatever you do, I will support RED. Quality and care is ultimately what I seek. And you guys embody both in every way-

 

[Roberto Lequeux]

While I feel flattered You think I have "measure of knowledge", I don't get any privilege treatment like PJ does. Even the RPP's - You got to shoot with them day before me... :devil:

Peter

I don't think they are only looking for super-star director feedback. That would have Red making 1/2 million dollar rigs. I think Red will talk to a wide gamut of smart people while listening to everyone.

 

[Ace]

A bit sad.. Why don't we have a seperate section called RED-LAB, where the enthusiastic "beta" fans get to chime in and continue the dialogue in product development. Kind of how the software world works.

 

[Casey Green]

A bit sad.. Why don't we have a seperate section called RED-LAB, where the enthusiastic "beta" fans get to chime in and continue the dialogue in product development. Kind of how the software world works.

I like this idea. :thumbup: