Basic set up for FCP

[Ralph Toporoff]

Almost finished shooting feature length film. Red One work exceptionally well. Very happy with camera. We are shooting 4K, 2 to 1 and results are great. Editing this footage is turning out to be a mystery and not quite sure what we should be doing when editing in Final Cut Pro. Have read the RED Media with Final Cut Pro paper on the RED website and going though the hundreds of threads at RedUser. Have hundreds of questions but would like to address the ones that immediately come to mind. I thank you all in advance for any clear workflow you might suggest. The ideal out for us would be a 2K-finished movie. No immediate plans to go to a film out.

For now, working with a Mac Pro Laptop (not ideal I know) Mac OSX version 10.5.5. Processore is 2.6 Ghz Intel Core 2 Duo. Memory is 4 GB 667 Mhz DDR2-SDRAM.
External drive are: eSATA Gglyph 500 Gig and a LaCie 1 Terabyte 800 firewire drive.

Using Red Alert to process the R3D files. Final Cut Sequence Preset is set to ProRes HQ 1920 x 1080 24P 48kHz.

First question. RedAlert Render Box, DeBayer Quality: Choices are:
Full Res.
Half Res. High or Standard (what’s the difference?)
Quarter
Eights

Question one: Which one to use? If I choose a small DeBayer Quality (quarter) does this affect the render out quality or only the working resolution in Final Cut when editing? When I render out will I end up with the full quality of 2K? Paper says that going to ProRes automatically drops 4K to 2K? So are the half, quarter and eights half of 4K or 2K? Is full DeBayer Quality then 4K or 2K?

Question Two: In the Output window of RedAlert can I change the Filename and folder settings? Will Final Cut be able to find the original file if I change?

Question three: In the Red Media with Final Cut paper. Using Log and Capture. Two methods. One, using ProRes 422 or Method two , RED quicktime files. The Import Preferences illustrated in paper under RED Digital Cinema REDCODE is “Apple ProRes 422, Apple ProRes 422 (HQ) and Native. When I open my Log and Transfer preferences I only have two options. Native is missing from the list. It also states in the paper that the RED quicktime files generated by the camera are not the RED quicktime files to be used with method two. Then the paper mentions a “RED Using ProRes” sequence Preset I created one using Custom and the parameters in the paper. When would you use this preset? Paper says use it with RED quicktime files but I can’t create these files without the “Native” option?

I still have 297 other questions but would greatly appreciate help with the three above. I sure for most of you this sounds very basic but for a first time user using RED with Final Cut I find it a bit confusing. What type of aspirin do you use when editing?

 

[Chris Vrakotas]

You can edit your material in FCP, using M proxies. This way you don't have to make any conversions-transcoding.

Proposed workflow:
1. edit in FCP with Mproxies
2. Export XML file
3. Load XML file in Crimson, make new XML
4. Load the new XMl in Redcine, color grade
5. Render in Redcine, whatever format you like.
6. Make roundtrip to FCP via Crimson.
7. final output from FCP

I hope this helps

 

[M Most]

I still have 297 other questions but would greatly appreciate help with the three above.

You shouldn't start with those three questions. You should start with this one:

What are you delivering?

Once you figure that out, you can work backwards to define the best way to create it. You say "a 2K finished movie." What exactly do you mean by that? How are you going to distribute that? How are you going to screen it? If you really mean HD video, that's not 2K, it's 1920x1080, a very specific format and most likely what you actually meant to say. If it's not, then you need to figure out what it is you're going to create before you come up with a way to create it. Using terms like "2K' and "4K" because you've heard them on Red User doesn't accomplish that.

 

[Ralph Toporoff]

Using terms like "2K' and "4K" because you've heard them on Red User doesn't accomplish that.

This is what we were thinking about the 2K out. The highest quality that Final Cut Pro can produce natively is a 2K file. We would edit in Final Cut to produce a 2K master that, and correct us if we’re wrong, would be something akin to a high quality master negative in film, the best that Final Cut can do on it’s own. Then use this master file to create any other type of file from HD down to Ipod , etc. If our thinking is incorrect please correct us. And the most we’ve heard about 2K and 4 K files was not from the RedUser site but is in the White paper downloaded from the RED website support titled “ Using RED media with Final Cut Studio”.

 

[Chris Vrakotas]

This is what we were thinking about the 2K out. The highest quality that Final Cut Pro can produce natively is a 2K file. We would edit in Final Cut to produce a 2K master that, and correct us if we’re wrong, would be something akin to a high quality master negative in film, the best that Final Cut can do on it’s own. Then use this master file to create any other type of file from HD down to Ipod , etc. If our thinking is incorrect please correct us. And the most we’ve heard about 2K and 4 K files was not from the RedUser site but is in the White paper downloaded from the RED website support titled “ Using RED media with Final Cut Studio”.

Ralph,
Having DPX 2K files is the best option for optimum quality.

 

[Ben Holmes]

Ralph,
Having DPX 2K files is the best option for optimum quality.

However, I don't think it's really an option on a Macbook Pro. :couch:

Ralph - please don't think I'm being facetious, but why would you shoot a feature length film on the RED without any sensible equipment to edit it on? To edit 2K you are going to need the following:

A Mac Pro.
A couple of calibrated computer monitors.
A colour correction monitor.
A video card - I'd recommend the AJA Kona3.
A FAST drive array capable of 2k. Although this used to mean Fibrechannel, it can be achieved more cheaply using fast SATA arrays and port multipliers.

The good news is that, like the RED One, the cost of a system like this has come down from around $250,000 to only $20,000.

I'd also recommend hiring someone with experience of ingesting, managing and editing (and coloring) RED footage, as you clearly have no experience of any of the above.

Again - I'm sorry if this sounds facetious, it's just that anyone saying 'we just finished shooting a feature film' then asking how they edit the footage wants taking outside for a good shoeing in my opinion. :yikes:

 

[Chris Vrakotas]

Ben,

You're 100% right about the equipment.

 

[Ralph Toporoff]

In response to all the posts.

In response to all the posts.

Again I would like to thank everyone for their posts. We are very aware that the ideal method of editing would be hardware along the lines of Ben Holmes list. My production company just acquired a RED One camera and this is the first time we’ve used it to shoot a feature. We make independent features shot exclusively on film till we acquired the RED, raise the money for our features, produce them and find distribution as well. In this case, shooting with RED, we had raised just enough money to get the production “in the can” with the cast and working crew we most wanted all available. So with are footage secured we can now take the time to find completion funds. Our reason for our post was to see if anyone knew a way of using the equipment listed. If not, then we will seek out a more robust system from someone who does have it. In response to Ben’s comment, we don’t have a lot of experience with RED footage, however, we’ve been editing with both AVID and Final Cut for many years. What we’ve found out is that everyone has their own version of how to deal with R3D files. Chris differs from Ben differs from Mmost and no one uses the method from the RED website paper Using RED Media with Final Cut Studio. Eventually you should be able to ingest R3D directly into NLE systems. Seems Adobe Premiere Pro is claiming that and says the can work directly with 4K files. We’re checking into that as well. Also, Chris’s idea of the Crimson workflow might just work as well. The purpose of this post was not to get peoples blood boiling. R3D is very new to us and we’d like to learn it, not just turn our footage over leaving us in the dark as to the process.

 

[M Most]

This is what we were thinking about the 2K out. The highest quality that Final Cut Pro can produce natively is a 2K file. We would edit in Final Cut to produce a 2K master that, and correct us if we’re wrong, would be something akin to a high quality master negative in film, the best that Final Cut can do on it’s own. Then use this master file to create any other type of file from HD down to Ipod , etc. If our thinking is incorrect please correct us. And the most we’ve heard about 2K and 4 K files was not from the RedUser site but is in the White paper downloaded from the RED website support titled “ Using RED media with Final Cut Studio”.

So it seems that what you're saying is that you plan to deliver HD (in either video or file form) and lower resolutions in various formats. What you're not planning is a film print or any kind of theatrical release format.

That establishes a better basis for post decisions. First, 2K and HD are different things, but they're not very different in terms of frame size. There's no point to using "2K" if what you really need is HD. Since you're not planning on theatrical formats, I would think that the best way to go about this is to shoot in either 4K 16x9 format or, even better, quad HD format. You then have a number of choices available for editorial. If you plan on taking this all the way to the point of deliverables yourself (and that would include editorial, visual effects, color correction, titles, and versioning for the different deliverables), you can go the ProRes route, convert everything to that format at HD resolution (1920x1080) and edit using those files directly. Or, you can use tools like Crimson or Monkey Extract to recover your cut as either uncompressed HD or DPX files if necessary. When you're done, you'll already have your HD version. Anything else can be generated from that. If you're only going to do the editorial work yourself, and use professional facilities for things like color correction and deliverables, you have the option of either using that HD version, or recovering the original R3d files for finishing at whatever resolution you want. This would also mean you don't need scopes, a proper color correction monitor and environment, or a number of the other things that Ben mentioned, saving you a good deal of money that could possibly be used to pay for professional services. Since you haven't said what capabilities you have (and I'm not necessarily talking about equipment here), there are a lot of different routes you can take.

 

[Chris Vrakotas]

What we’ve found out is that everyone has their own version of how to deal with R3D files.

That the interesting thing about R3D format. There are a lot of different ways to be processed.

 

[Ralph Toporoff]

Clarification

Clarification

Since you haven't said what capabilities you have (and I'm not necessarily talking about equipment here), there are a lot of different routes you can take.

OK. Allow me to clarify what we do. I started in this business in 1964. We opened our own production company in 1978 and have been producing small character driven independent features ever since. We’ve cut films on everything from Movieola uprights to flat beds to tape editing machines and NLE’s. We raise money, buy properties, and put entire package together. We are not a production service company. We’ve always shot film. Seeing footage from the RED made us jump over to digital as a viable medium for independent production. We’re extremely happy with what we see out of our RED #941. Are business is not with the public it’s with distributors. How much we can raise for an individual project will determine if we just get it in the “can” or take it all the way to completion. So using your excellent suggestion we would create a “virtual” film, and deliver in HD format not a film print. However, the buyer might very well decide to bump it up for a film print and they would spend the money to have all the conversion work done (color correction, etc.). That is why we will always shoot at a level that would be suitable for a potential film out completion. What our buyers look for is story content, performance from the actors and the visual and editorial esthetic. We find using the RED camera fairly uncomplicated considering and get exactly the results we want out of it. We've used editors and service companies to edit some of our productions and in a few instances I’ve cut a production on my own using a full up Mac system, (desktop, dual monitors, etc.) and Final Cut. Even digital editing is pretty straightforward once you get the material in the system. Our chief concern is that there is a route in and back to the original material which seems to be more an engineering feat than an editing one, to a re-conform for a potential film out.

 

[jake blackstone]

That is why we will always shoot at a level that would be suitable for a potential film out completion.

How do you do this? Or should I rather ask, how would you shoot that would be unsuitable for the filmout?

 

[Ralph Toporoff]

How do you do this? Or should I rather ask, how would you shoot that would be unsuitable for the filmout?

We’ve been basing our camera setup decisions on the RED Media and FCS paper downloaded from the RED website. Quote: “ The RED camera supports two variants of each resolution, a 2:1 aspect ratio for projects intended for film output, and a 16:9 aspect ratios for projects intended for video”. So when we shoot we compose picture for the 2:1 , not 16:9. Our lens package for RED is 35mm cine lenses so if we set the camera to shoot 2K we lose depth of field. Quote: “RED camera records smaller resolution by using less of the sensor’s area. Shoot 4K in the field (comparable to a Super 35mm film gate) in order to obtain the shallowest depth of field for your compositional needs. It ‘s also worth noting that shooting 4K will result in higher image quality even after the eventual downcoversion in FCP.”

 

[David Birdy]

Ralf,

4K is great for many reasons, Pan & scan, digital projection and yes film outs.

The key to film-outs is to have a redundant set of data with a cmx log that enables good edit points for a film conform. Always do a few test film prints and view them for quality control before the full run!

You can always derive a lower quality,(SD, 720, 1080) from a High Quality 4K master.

If you shoot 4K you are limited to the frame rate of 25fps (16Gig card) or a maximum of 30 fps with SSD or "spinning" hard drive.


Dave

 

[Ralph Toporoff]

Ralf,

The key to film-outs is to have a redundant set of data with a cmx log that enables good edit points for a film conform. Always do a few test prints and view them for quality control before the full run!

If you shoot 4K you are limited to the frame rate of 25fps (16Gig card) or 30 fps with SSD or hard drive.


Dave

Thanks Dave. We will defiantly keep this in mind. Limited frame rate is not a problem for the type of narrative films we tend to make. On very rare occasions we’ve over cranked film cameras to 32 frames on non-sync sound shots to give the shot a more fluid look. In Final Cut you can extend the time of a clip to create a slow motion effect. If we don’t shoot the higher frame rate in the RED camera what type of problems would we be creating if we did it in post on Final Cut? Would this not be a translatable effect if we had to go back to the original R3D’s clips for a 4K film out?

 

[Ralph Toporoff]

Again - I'm sorry if this sounds facetious, it's just that anyone saying 'we just finished shooting a feature film' then asking how they edit the footage wants taking outside for a good shoeing in my opinion. :yikes:

Just found out that I will be in London mid-July on business. Here’s your opportunity for that “shoeing”.

 

[Steve Sanacore]

However, I don't think it's really an option on a Macbook Pro. :couch:

Ralph - please don't think I'm being facetious, but why would you shoot a feature length film on the RED without any sensible equipment to edit it on? To edit 2K you are going to need the following:

A Mac Pro.
A couple of calibrated computer monitors.
A colour correction monitor.
A video card - I'd recommend the AJA Kona3.
A FAST drive array capable of 2k. Although this used to mean Fibrechannel, it can be achieved more cheaply using fast SATA arrays and port multipliers.

The good news is that, like the RED One, the cost of a system like this has come down from around $250,000 to only $20,000.

I'd also recommend hiring someone with experience of ingesting, managing and editing (and coloring) RED footage, as you clearly have no experience of any of the above.

Again - I'm sorry if this sounds facetious, it's just that anyone saying 'we just finished shooting a feature film' then asking how they edit the footage wants taking outside for a good shoeing in my opinion. :yikes:

I wouldn't be so hard on Ralph. They made a good choice as to the right camera and got a "film in the can". I think he knew that he would have many options for the film as far as finishing. Now he is just looking for what those options are.

 

[Tim Fassnacht]

We’ve been basing our camera setup decisions on the RED Media and FCS paper downloaded from the RED website. Quote: “ The RED camera supports two variants of each resolution, a 2:1 aspect ratio for projects intended for film output, and a 16:9 aspect ratios for projects intended for video”. So when we shoot we compose picture for the 2:1 , not 16:9. Our lens package for RED is 35mm cine lenses so if we set the camera to shoot 2K we lose depth of field. Quote: “RED camera records smaller resolution by using less of the sensor’s area. Shoot 4K in the field (comparable to a Super 35mm film gate) in order to obtain the shallowest depth of field for your compositional needs. It ‘s also worth noting that shooting 4K will result in higher image quality even after the eventual downcoversion in FCP.”

Hey Ralph,

I see you're getting a lot of run around here. Shoot me an email and maybe we can talk about what your options are. Always like to help a fellow filmmaker in need.


tfassnacht (AT) gmail (dot) com

Best,

Tim Fassnacht

 

[Allen Abrahams]

In response to Ben’s comment, we don’t have a lot of experience with RED footage, however, we’ve been editing with both AVID and Final Cut for many years. What we’ve found out is that everyone has their own version of how to deal with R3D files. Chris differs from Ben differs from Mmost and no one uses the method from the RED website paper Using RED Media with Final Cut Studio. Eventually you should be able to ingest R3D directly into NLE systems. Seems Adobe Premiere Pro is claiming that and says the can work directly with 4K files. We’re checking into that as well. Also, Chris’s idea of the Crimson workflow might just work as well. The purpose of this post was not to get peoples blood boiling. R3D is very new to us and we’d like to learn it, not just turn our footage over leaving us in the dark as to the process.

Our chief concern is that there is a route in and back to the original material which seems to be more an engineering feat than an editing one, to a re-conform for a potential film out.

Ralph, thanks for the post. You certainly should ask questions before you get too far into it. I am in a similar situation. Unfortunately getting answers is difficult as nearly everyone wants to make a buck and not share their secrets (with a few notable exceptions).
Our editor went forward editing with what he thought was a correct process and hit a dead end. Editing was mostly complete last fall. Our process was to be the Crimson Workflow roundtrip to RedCine, but our editor took the edit too far with transitional effects, running into some limitations.
You can only process hard edits and no effects with RedCine. I understand there is a 25 clip limit when using RedCine as well. We also had some issues with frame rates, and extra frames which are most likely operator error. Other than that the workflow provided some excellent images.
If I am incorrect with my observations of these limitations, someone please let me know, if it's not secret. ;~|

 

[Ralph Toporoff]

Ralph, thanks for the post. You certainly should ask questions before you get too far into it. I am in a similar situation. Unfortunately getting answers is difficult as nearly everyone wants to make a buck and not share their secrets (with a few notable exceptions).|

Thanks Allen for the heads up. We keep mentioning that “Using RED Media with Final Cut Pro” paper that we downloaded from the RED website and no one has said that they recommend or use this method. The basic feeling we’re getting is that RED stopped at their front door and said here are R3D files and the NLE editing systems guys stopped at their front door and said great, let the user figure out how to get this files from R3D to are editing systems. Seems we’ve got a lot of engineering cowboys jumping on their horses and riding off in all directions on how to accomplish this when the responsibility is for RED and AVID, Final Cut and whoever else creates NLE systems coming up with a standard operating procedure for accomplishing conversion of materials from R3D to a final out so that Allen and most likely myself will not end up getting screwed a half yard from the goal line. That is why we’re following the recommendations of the RED website paper because it’s the only official material on the RED website. I think the NLE guys should issue out the same kind of instructions as well. Am I wrong to follow the RED website material? Will be away for ten days selling our new project. Hope this thread continues and looking forward to any response. .