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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

New RED policy...

We all wish we could be sitting in the virtual boardroom getting up to date progress reports on a daily basis,the good and the bad, but this is obviously not a practical way to run a company in a competitive environment.
Updates like the color science tests and beta release show real progress is happening in some very important areas. The test pilot program also shows the continuing importance of RED 1 and its users as a development platform.

Just throw us a few bones now and again when you can.
 
Waiting for the Scarlet (and Epic) exemption, then. ;-)
 
agreed

agreed

Smart move Jim! I think doing things the 'apple way' of announcing an announcement and then building anticipation before the announcement, then saying and we're shipping in one month or something... is smart!

good choice
 
"We are always trying to find ways to improve our business. That includes how we communicate with our partners and customers.

Jim"

Well, Jim, I suggested many months ago that you HIRE someone to do just that.

Sorting out this mass of information (and misinformation) should be a high priority. It requires a dedicated, competent professional or professionals to stay on top of your information flows.
 
Thing is, I now expect to read every week some juicy bits about Scarlet, and every week I'm disappointed. I check back here every day to see if there are any ship dates yet. And it's kind of frustrating.

Compare this with how Apple does things. Unless you spend your time on rumors sites, most of their announcements take you by surprise. "We've created something awesome. We've been working on it in secret for years. It ships tomorrow."

I've come to prefer the latter way. But then I also understood that RED was different. It was a garage operation, not a hundred billion dollar corporate mammoth responsible to millions of shareholders.

The openness has surely helped a lot, especially in terms of feedback. However, RED becoming more "Apple-like" is a welcome sign of maturity... Now you'll surprise us rather than build expectations and create a lot of impatient fans.

Not that I'm seriously complaining about this "frustration," mind you. It's been kind of a delightful pain...

P.S.: Any Scarlet ship dates? Please? Fixed lens? (OK, kidding here. Wish I wasn't.)
 
Personally I like knowing what's coming even if I don't have an exact release date.

It's sort of like how car companies keep their test mules in camo forever and I can't tell what it looks like, then when they finally release it it's like "Well, if I'd known a month ago that the car looked that good I would have waited for it. But I didn't, so I bought from the competition."

If they hadn't made the Scarlet announcement when they did I would have bought an XL H1 and since I'm really a hobbyist I'd have not been able to afford a Scarlet for a long time if ever. Since they did, I'm waiting for it.

I'll admit that, yes, I check the forums almost daily for updates but I have some self control and I know posting ten times a day asking for updates wasn't going to make them come any faster.
 
For me the Apple approach is terrible.

It works if you only buy apple products from apple but knowing what's coming is critical to deciding on where I should invest my energy and resources right now.

If Apple isn't going to deliver it then I know to look elsewhere right now. If they are going to discontinue a product then I need to start looking to alternatives and migrate as soon as possible. If they plan on continueing the product then I want to know what their intentions are.

I've abandoned software I liked because updates came too slow and the company wouldn't publicly assure its customers that someday updates would come. I've seen flagship products lose almost their entire customer base because a company wasn't able to sufficiently assure of their dedication to future development.

Just take a few minutes to browse the Autodesk forums. Autodesk sells subscriptions and in order to spread out their revenue for accounting laws they can't announce anything until the month in which it'll be released. Houdini on the other hand has a daily build you can download and they talk openly about their future plans. The impression that the customers get is that Autodesk isn't doing anything and that Houdini is constantly at work. Even though Autodesk often delivers just as much or more the impression is that Autodesk doesn't do anything and doesn't listen to their customers and that Houdini is responsive and receptive.

The 3dsmax team was doubled by Autodesk. Autodesk invested a huge amount of money in the product. But since the developers and managers couldn't tell their customers what they were working on the impression was that nothing was happening.

In the absence of a vocal authority you're left with rumors and speculation.

---

EDIT: Few examples of this. If Canon had announced ahead of time that they were planning on releasing a firmware upgrade that would enable manual mode.... imagine how much ill will wouldn't have been directed their way by everyone saying how clueless they are.

Also think about all the people who threaten to stop being apple customers because they always pay full price for something a week before apple replaces it with something new. If you had no idea the new iPhone was coming out (and it hadn't leaked) and you bought one couple weeks ago you would feel reallll stupid. Or if you waited hoping that it would be announced and it wasn't then you just held out for x weeks waiting for Apple to announce something that they don't... then do you buy it now or do you wait for the next Apple event in a few months... and so on and so forth.
 
Yeah, but Apple HAS to keep a lid on everything.

They are publicly traded. Most dangerous job in America is CEO of a publicly
traded company. All about "the mum"

RED DIGITAL CINEMA is privately held... and that rocks.

RED ONE owners are already thrilled.

What they want from my 6 months of grand knowledge.

1. Lighter more configurable form factor (done)
2. Better Sensors (done)
3. Shipping in due time and accessories readily available, should something fail (spare parts)

For me, its not so much about "when" you are going to ship. (although 3 to 36 month general windows are cool)

Its about how many when they ship?

But Jim-Jarred et al. you dont have shareholders to let down, only yourselves.

Its cool and Ill bet you guys are harder on yourselves im sure than any ahole on here can be.

I think I speak for many on here when we say its been a fun ride and let us know what
we can do to help.

for me, "Lots of stuff behind the scenes" is all I needed to hear :)

EDIT: as for Apple. We just bought a 13" Macbook which is now pro i.e. faster
SD slot, Firewire 800 etc.. for $300 bucks less.

that sucks!
 
Thanks for the candor Jim. I think RED is totally unique in the way it deals with its customers, and much better for it.

But this doesn't help kill the anticipation waiting for announcements though.... : )
 
It was bound to happen. Red has all the buzz they could dream of and more. I hope DSMC's firs iterations will blow our minds and that Red will continue to have a strong presence and continue listening on this forum. But more than that I hope that Red will press on, at least in terms of fps, DR, compression, noise and sensitivity and whatever else I am missing... oh, and prices. :)
 
New policy

New policy

i think could be a good policy for Red One users.
But for people waiting Scarlet as first Red cam ... is not good.

I don't have enough money to afford Red One so i'll buy Canon 5D mark II.
Sorry but my patience (i followed Red announcements for years not months...) is finished.

I 'll be still Red Entusiast "Observer" of course.
Best luck for all your work.

Andrea
 
I think the Apple model is pretty smart (seems to be working for them judging by their stock price!) - it's perfectly suited for the internet age where whole websites are dedicated to rumour & speculation about their new products. More often than not they're pretty poorly kept "secrets" but in the meantime Apple have achieved thousands of inches of free column space without lifting a finger. I also love their "one more thing" thing...this also seems to reduce grown men to a childhood-Christmas-time state (incidentally Red's "By The Way...3D" really reminded me of this!)
 
I can understand people's need to discuss release dates again and again.

There is one group who is already working, managing a business, being responsible for investment plans etc. They have been hooked by the announcement of a product that has a "price/capability-ratio" so surpassing that delaying other investments seemed to be a wise option. (Of course I speak of Scarlet/Epic here) Now, Jim explained why the original release dates may not be reasonable time and again. Plans changed. But (some) people were unwilling to change there investment plans and are still waiting, growing frustrated. That is certainly annoying for them, and everybody will understand that, but still these things happen and/or are necessary. Don't forget how young RED is and how steep the learning curve must be according to that. I'm happy that they take the time to incorporate as much recent knowledge into these new cameras as they can.

The other group in my opinion are the, let's say, more "independent" filmmakers with lower budgets. For them a Scarlet is like the first and only opportunity to shoot in a "cinematically profound" level (meaning high resolution, bitrates and dynamic range, post-pro options). They might not be as interested in announcements concerning RedRocket or Prime Masters and thus just see what ever news fall into the Scarlet/Epic cetegory. And as these have not been adressed as much in the last month, they might feel "held back". (And I still am thankful for everyone reminding me that good movies can be made every day with what is available to us now!)

There might be a third group, hobbyists and technical nerds (like me) who are simply marvelled by the possibility to being able to shoot pictures comparable to what they see on the big screen every day. And they will always wanna know more!! :) We would spent every free minute in RED's workshops if we could, watching the wizards brandishing there wands (Did that come out wrong somehow?! :D ). We actually enjoy every announcement, not that concerned about release dates (although we want to hold a Scarlet in our hands as quick as possible as everybody else) because we are well "info-tained" by what is written on this board every day.

So, take you time, RED Team and work the way that helps you to make the best product possible. That's what counts in the end.

2 cents out!
 
I can't help but think that this has much to do with people here who just couldn't keep a lid on themselves.

Watching the camera development process happen as transparently as RED has been was an amazing process. The involvment with the community was even more amazing.

Yet, despite the always-present disclaimer in Jim's signature, people became impatient and demanding.

It's too bad. I am not yet a customer... but definitiely a fan. And since day one I got the notion that the product was not going to be any further out than if it were developed behind closed doors, but instead I got to observe and even participate along the way.

Now it would appear some of that process will no longer be transparent to us, and the impatient forum-jockeys share much of the blame.

-Steve
 
Steven Caesare said:
I can't help but think that this has much to do with people here who just couldn't keep a lid on themselves.

Watching the camera development process happen as transparently as RED has been was an amazing process. The involvment with the community was even more amazing.

Yet, despite the always-present disclaimer in Jim's signature, people became impatient and demanding.

It's too bad. I am not yet a customer... but definitiely a fan. And since day one I got the notion that the product was not going to be any further out than if it were developed behind closed doors, but instead I got to observe and even participate along the way.

Now it would appear some of that process will no longer be transparent to us, and the impatient forum-jockeys share much of the blame.

-Steve
Click to expand...

Steve... there is a lot of truth in your post. Transparency is a good thing only as long as the troops fully embrace it, including the hard part (schedule). Some want us to be unconventional in all ways that include them in the process and understand that the schedule is a moving target "depending". Others like the sound of the concept but seem to revert back to "but you said and I need it now". It is easy to see why no company will try this transparency thing. It is very difficult to pull off. Our goal now is a modified approach, somewhere in the middle. We'll see how that goes.

Jim
 
Jannard said:
The exception would be something we need a lot of customer feedback on (like Scarlet & EPIC)... but even then we'll try to get closer to completion before talking about it and asking for feedback.
Click to expand...

Keep those exceptions coming...

There's no doubt that you have chosen the hard way, but direct customer feedback, with its warts and all, has done a great deal to fast-track improvements on RED products.

Knowing that someone is listening is huge.
 
Meryem Ersoz said:
Keep those exceptions coming...

There's no doubt that you have chosen the hard way, but direct customer feedback, with its warts and all, has done a great deal to fast-track improvements on RED products.

Knowing that someone is listening is huge.
Click to expand...

I agree. That's why we are taking a modified approach and not completely abandoning the philosophy.

Jim
 
I think it would be very reassuring to know when you make big breakthroughs on camera development... even if the details are not given. Knowing if and when changes are occurring is very nice. Gives me a closeness to whats going on at RED.:couch:
 
I'm just an avid spectator of the marketing world but even I can appreciate the razor's edge that the company is walking with regard to the timing of the Scarlet announcement and their subsequent silence.

You announce early to capture the market's attention, but announce too early and you run two major risks:

1. The better positioned competition with similar products already in the pipeline either beats you to market or releases just after you with a much more mature product that kicks your butt in customer satisfaction.

2. The inability to meet an unreasonable timeline creates a backlash effect as seen here.

It is possible that the Red folks simply underestimated the hunger for a product like Scarlet when timing their announcement. I'd also bet that even this is a good thing because a hungry audience is more forgiving, and it is easier to recover from hype burn-out than it is to sell products to people who don't know that your company or product exists.

Creating a public forum like this one for market research is also a double edged sword if you lack the discipline to lock off your designs and go to production. The desire to implement new features can keep you in development indefinitely. I think every artist reading this can identify with that problem; Is this the final rewrite? Are we ready to lock picture?

I'm burning for a Scarlet myself, but I don't want one that is poorly developed so I am exercising my patience muscles. What choices do I have?

I have every confidence that the Red Team will make the best choices for the product and the company. Their track record so far is exemplary and most signs point to more of the same. Let us hope that they go 3 for 3 when Scarlet and Epic roll out.

Keep up the good work!
 
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