"Southland" to be shot on RED?

[Brook Willard]

Well, 168 locations, 46 days and ~800 rolls later, we just wrapped. Keep watching! There's some way cool stuff in the next few episodes.

 

[Curran Giddens]

Congrats! I am a fan of the show and will definitely keep watching.

 

[Michael P. Schmidt]

Hey Brook,
Congrats too!

i can't wait to see more !

and we are are really looking forward to use the RED on upcoming projects. There are some questions, though.

so, i have some "little" questions for you, if you don't mind

- to you shot on Reddrive or redflash? (they treat the RED very aggressively)
- how many storage have /had you on Set (backup etc.)?
- on which resolution to they shoot /shot the show (4K, 2K)?
- the Master is 720p, isn't it ?


thx for your time

 

[Brook Willard]

- to you shot on Reddrive or redflash? (they treat the RED very aggressively)
- how many storage have /had you on Set (backup etc.)?
- on which resolution to they shoot /shot the show (4K, 2K)?
- the Master is 720p, isn't it ?

We strictly shoot to 16GB CF - we have about 30 of them. If a camera is going completely remote [say, in a helicopter for the day, where reloading is a PITA], we'll use a RED RAM.

I have roughly 14TB of RAID 6 storage plus LTO-4 data tape. We do film breaks twice daily.

We shoot 3.8K, RC36.

The show masters 1080p.

 

[Michael P. Schmidt]

We strictly shoot to 16GB CF - we have about 30 of them. If a camera is going completely remote [say, in a helicopter for the day, where reloading is a PITA], we'll use a RED RAM.

I have roughly 14TB of RAID 6 storage plus LTO-4 data tape. We do film breaks twice daily.

We shoot 3.8K, RC36.

The show masters 1080p.

thx man ! :beer:

we do mostly corporate film & commercials and we are quite undecided about the workflow.

so, one more question(s) about the post-workflow
what resolution/proxies/codec are used for dailies and the editing (and the Master as well) ?
what software is used on location and in post (FCP, Avid ...)

sorry i dont want to bother you ;-) ... but its amazing stuff i have seen until now and i want to know how this was made ... and how this works... so i can "learn" something for our work... how we can handle RED footage.

there are lots of theories about that ... i want to know how we can do that "most practical"

 

[Brook Willard]

There's only so much I can post - I don't think I've bent the rules just yet. That said, I can tell you that much of our workflow is designed to fit into what everybody is used to. There's potential for some very exciting changes in that department, though... so I must keep my lips zipped for now.

 

[Michael P. Schmidt]

ok fair enough! so i try it again later so what to you do now ... SOUTHLAND is wrapped ... u have some freetime ? ;-)

oh ... one more question - more philosophically:
to u think the RED becomes more and more popularly accepted in the feature ans TV business ... 35mm is still quit strong, isn't it ?

and what is with ARRI and SONY/Panavision DigiCams ... sometimes i don't like the pictures shot with those Cams. i don't know why. (like "21" or "Everybody Hates Chris"...)

 

[M Most]

to u think the RED becomes more and more popularly accepted in the feature ans TV business ... 35mm is still quit strong, isn't it ?

Thanks to SAG, we are now seeing a greatly accelerated move from film to digital cameras. This pilot season, out of 60 or so pilots, only 2 were shot on film. The rest were shot on digital cameras - primarily Genesis, F23, and F35, with a few on Red as well (more in Canada than in the US). There are likely to be some legacy shows that have been shot on film that will move to digital capture this coming season as well (Smallville and Law and Order did last season), and it is unlikely that many new shows will be given approval for shooting on film, even after SAG comes to their senses and signs their contract. This has been predicted for a number of years now, but the options are better than they've ever been, and the political fallout of SAG effectively ceding representation of television actors to AFTRA has kind of sealed the deal.

 

[Casey Green]

I think there are a number of TV shows currently testing RED and other Digital formats with a possible switcher over in the coming seasons.

RED being a leading contender because of the dramatic difference in savings it offers show's budgets over other Digital Cinema Cameras.

I've also seen a lot of "tests" done by DPs where they will book a Commercial, so they can get experience on RED before shooting a Series or Feature with it.

Also, several Feature and Series DPs, when shooting on Film, have used RED as a VFX Camera because it can offer a better image for compositing in many cases (especially compared to certain Film Cameras which can have weaving caused by the Registration action, which is harder to track in post.)

I think this next year will show an explosion of RED Series and Features, now that the post workflow has been worked out and accepted on all platforms and the Studios and Rental Houses now have confidence in the Camera.

 

[M Most]

RED being a leading contender because of the dramatic difference in savings it offers show's budgets over other Digital Cinema Cameras.

That all depends on how it is handled, by both production and post. The camera may be cheaper, but the accessories, lenses, and everything else necessary to shoot a professional production are basically the same. Post production can be handled in many different ways, some of which will save money (albeit sometimes at the cost of expertise and assistance at certain points along the way) and some of which won't. The cost of the camera itself is a rather miniscule part of a production budget. Other issues are considerably more important.

I think this next year will show an explosion of RED Series and Features, now that the post workflow has been worked out and accepted on all platforms and the Studios and Rental Houses now have confidence in the Camera.

Perhaps, but it won't be because "the post workflow has been worked out." Part of the current objection to Red is that "the post workflow" is actually your choice of about 10 different ways of doing anything. The problem in an industry that runs on standard ways of doing things, methods that are essentially similar across different studios, post houses, and broadcast networks, is that without a "standard" methodology there is chaos. With chaos comes one-off solutions, and with one-off solutions comes lack of flexibility in terms of personnel, technical support, and the freedom to change suppliers at the facility level. Until there is more general agreement as to both what constitutes a "proper" final product on a Red production and how to get there, there is no "worked out" post flow. That's one of the reasons that most of the pilots were done on systems like Genesis, F23, and F35, particularly on projects that required front end support in a place like New York or Toronto, but with back end finishing being done in Los Angeles.

 

[Michael P. Schmidt]

but show's like "ER", "Southland" and even "The Listener" prove the fact that RED works good ?! and the look is far better then Genesis (my opinion)

i can't say somehing about the handling...

but its true ... the post workflow (for RED) isn't really set yet...

 

[Brook Willard]

That all depends on how it is handled, by both production and post. The camera may be cheaper, but the accessories, lenses, and everything else necessary to shoot a professional production are basically the same. Post production can be handled in many different ways, some of which will save money (albeit sometimes at the cost of expertise and assistance at certain points along the way) and some of which won't. The cost of the camera itself is a rather miniscule part of a production budget. Other issues are considerably more important.

So true. I remember one production about 9 months ago that asked me to compile a list of the prices of our rented cameras and accessories. They wanted to buy their own gear to save on rentals. I compiled the list for just one camera package with the accessories and lenses we used the most.

The price was just over $300,000.

They got over that idea very quickly.

 

[Casey Green]

The cost of the camera itself is a rather miniscule part of a production budget. Other issues are considerably more important.

While the Camera cost may be a small part, I wouldn't consider it minuscule. After all, there are reasons why PrimeTime shows decide to shoot 16mm vs. 35mm. Shows trying to save on their budget have even switched mid-season down to 16mm. Sure it has to do with post as well, but I think that once the numbers are run, companies are going to find that owning RED Camera bodies and then renting the accessories and lenses can be very cost effective.

Until there is more general agreement as to both what constitutes a "proper" final product on a Red production and how to get there, there is no "worked out" post flow.

I agree. What I meant by worked out is that RED workflows are now available on all major editing platforms and many grading systems, compared to even a year ago, when options were much more limited.

As for standard methods, I think that RED will always offer many options and that people will embrace this freedom rather than fear it. I don't think of it so much as "chaos" but perhaps rather "open".

I'm sure a few tried and true post methods will emerge (some already have), but I don't see any real standards partly due to the fact that RED is used in so many different ways and on so many levels of production.

 

[Michael P. Schmidt]

just saw the current episode ... awesome ! :head_explode:

how many RED did you smash (car chase with the van...) ... became anybody hurt...

concept works quite well (no music -nearly, editing, hand-held camera...):thumbsup:

nightscenes looks somtimes a little "video-ish" (i think shutte issue) but thats not bad

somtimes i'm wondering how "extensive" the lighting was ... sometimes - even interior shots - looks like "just natural daylight" ...

 

[Michael P. Schmidt]

btw ... cool foreground/ background work ... it's nice too watch ... full advantage of DOF !

 

[M Most]

While the Camera cost may be a small part, I wouldn't consider it minuscule. After all, there are reasons why PrimeTime shows decide to shoot 16mm vs. 35mm.

Yes. And those reasons are primarily the cost of stock and processing, because the cost of the camera and the telecine transfer are roughly the same. In fact, at one time an Elaine was more expensive than a GII.

...I think that once the numbers are run, companies are going to find that owning RED Camera bodies and then renting the accessories and lenses can be very cost effective.

If by "companies" you mean "studios," I disagree. Studios by and large really don't want to be in the camera business. But that's what makes horse races.

As for standard methods, I think that RED will always offer many options and that people will embrace this freedom rather than fear it. I don't think of it so much as "chaos" but perhaps rather "open".

I'm sure a few tried and true post methods will emerge (some already have), but I don't see any real standards partly due to the fact that RED is used in so many different ways and on so many levels of production.

While that's true, I was talking primarily of the network and cable based dramas and comedies on which I (and, for the most part, you) have largely worked over the years. In that world, the studio post production department wants to not only know how things are being done, but wants to have some standard products across productions. They, along with their producers, also want the ability to change facilities at any time for any reason, and that means that the facilities need to do things roughly the same way. It's fine for every independent production to be a post production science project, but for studios, which have numerous shows going on at the same time, that's not very practical or advantageous.

 

[Casey Green]

Yes. And those reasons are primarily the cost of stock and processing, because the cost of the camera and the telecine transfer are roughly the same. In fact, at one time an Elaine was more expensive than a GII.

Yes. And I believe the post side will become much less expensive compared to film processing as well, increasing the incentive to shoot digital.

If by "companies" you mean "studios," I disagree. Studios by and large really don't want to be in the camera business. But that's what makes horse races.

Sorry, by "companies", I meant production companies, not studios. Yes, indeed, most studios have closed their Camera shops and now out source. (This may change in the future, however). But I see a possible trend of the actual production companies buying their own Camera gear, and renting the rest of the lenses, accessories, and support.

While that's true, I was talking primarily of the network and cable based dramas and comedies on which I (and, for the most part, you) have largely worked over the years. In that world, the studio post production department wants to not only know how things are being done, but wants to have some standard products across productions. They, along with their producers, also want the ability to change facilities at any time for any reason, and that means that the facilities need to do things roughly the same way. It's fine for every independent production to be a post production science project, but for studios, which have numerous shows going on at the same time, that's not very practical or advantageous.

Good points. I can partly agree with this, yet I also see some producers deciding it's time to make changes and are pushing the boundaries and literally creating their own workflows, regardless, since the advantages are becoming too many to ignore.

Sure, it's going to be a little while until any standardization comes about. I mean, just the fact that next year there will be new RED Camera, resolutions, REDCODE compression, RED ROCKET, etc... let along the myriad of third part products and services.

Well, I think we can all agree these are exciting times.

 

[M Most]

...I see a possible trend of the actual production companies buying their own Camera gear, and renting the rest of the lenses, accessories, and support.

That's possible. It happened in post, where I know of at least 3 production companies who bought their own editing equipment - two of them Avid, one Final Cut. The idea was that if the show survived another season, they would keep it, and if not, they would sell it - or use it for a new production. It worked out pretty well in all cases, so, yes, I could see such a trend continuing.

the fact that next year there will be new RED Camera, resolutions, REDCODE compression, RED ROCKET, etc... let along the myriad of third part products and services.

Which is actually part of the problem. Editing equipment is based on commodity Macs and PC's, which don't undergo radical changes year to year - and even if they did, the value is in the software, which is easily updated. Even storage can continue to be used regardless of whether there's cheaper storage available. Not to mention that assistant editors have become their own tech experts in the last couple of years, at least in terms of basic system upkeep and maintenance. Cameras are quite different, and regardless of the "obsolescence obsolete" claim, the fact is that in the camera world - Red's as well as everyone else's - there is a seemingly never ending cycle of changes, upgrades, and new things to understand and adopt. Production companies are in the business of creative storytelling with an eye towards popular appeal and thus profitability. They are not tech businesses, and are not really interested in carrying full time tech people to keep up with this stuff. Now, if the economics are compelling enough, and they feel they can at least get a seasons' worth of utility out of the investment, and ultimately recover some of the cost of entry, then yes, such an investment merits some consideration. I'm not making any predictions on that, though.

 

[Brook Willard]

how many RED did you smash (car chase with the van...) ... became anybody hurt...

Nobody hurt, no damaged equipment, clean PR.

That said, don't forget to tune in to the season finale next week...

nightscenes looks somtimes a little "video-ish" (i think shutte issue) but thats not bad

We shoot with a 270˚ shutter at night. It's not intended to make it look like video, but we make no effort to make it look like film. The Southland look is very much its own thing...

somtimes i'm wondering how "extensive" the lighting was ... sometimes - even interior shots - looks like "just natural daylight" ...

That's more a testament to the brilliant crew than anything else. There is no greater compliment than to say that the lighting is invisible.

 

[Birns and Sawyer]

The question is, who own(ed) that camera?