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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

New 1.7 Primes for the RED ONE from Germany:

My experience with lenses by now, is that optical design is quite possible for "affordable" price. I've done projector tests on most optics and found that they ALL achieve very well optically. The hard part is mechanically and so far only ZEISS/ARRI, COOKE and Angenieux stand out.

From what I read so far with all these new lenses it's all about optically, but what about mechanically? How do all these lenses live up to that?

PS: Im of course generalizing when I say they all achieve well optically.
 
weirdcrew said:
My experience with lenses by now, is that optical design is quite possible for "affordable" price. I've done projector tests on most optics and found that they ALL achieve very well optically. The hard part is mechanically and so far only ZEISS/ARRI, COOKE and Angenieux stand out.

From what I read so far with all these new lenses it's all about optically, but what about mechanically? How do all these lenses live up to that?

PS: Im of course generalizing when I say they all achieve well optically.
Click to expand...

Mechanical as well as optical quality have to be excellent for cinestyle primes.

Long term-support, fast, and on every continent is another important topic.

The warranty duration is another important decision factor when buying new
lenses - and one of the aspects one manufacturer can use to underline his interest and intention.

I suppose the lenses will be in the upper echelon in any of these aspects: warranty, duration of the waranty, on-continent service as well as mechanical quality level and quality assurance.
 
"Hoya and Shott, the two big (specialist) glass makers of this world.

...............


Schott is a subsidiary of Zeiss with a history going back to 1888.
Nikon makes its own glass and has done so since 1917 when they
were basically a subsidiary of the Imperial Japanese Navy.
The Nikon glass works and technology at that time was set up and
developed in conjunction with German Academics and Technicians.
While Zeiss had some pretty innovative weaponry optics in WWII,
Nikon did too. One example is the 15 metre wide optical rangefinders
for the 18.1 inch artillery pieces on the super battleships "Yamato" and
"Musashi" that had a range of 35 KM (21 miles)"

LINK>>>

So I'm 100% sure that lenses Laguun is all the time talking about are made by ISCO Göttingen

based on Schott glass (lens flat glass elements) like all German cine and still lenses today.
 
So is ISCO and Schott part of the same company (both owned by the Zeiss foundation?) It would just seem weird that ISCO or Schott (if they are both a part of Zeiss) would compete with Zeiss since these lenses could very well take away business from the Zeiss Ultra/Master Prime lines.

Of course, it could be like the Vitec group which owns O'Connor, Sachtler & Viten. Those three directly compete against each other.

The glass we use if built by Schott - The same glass bought by Arri/Zeiss for their MP/UP Design.
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Do you mean the glass *IS* built by Schott? The word "if" doesn't make a ton of sense with the rest of your sentence. But if it's the same glass bought by Arri for the Ultra primes, won't that just make these Ultra primes?

If you'd like help with your English before you post here, let me know. I can go over your post and make sure it makes sense.

Matthew
 
I dont see these lenses as any direct competition for the big boys. sorta like the new ones are the toyata camry to the UP and MP of lexus. same company both good quality
just different needs.
 
Paul Hazlett said:
I dont see these lenses as any direct competition for the big boys. sorta like the new ones are the toyata camry to the UP and MP of lexus. same company both good quality
just different needs.
Click to expand...

But a Camry and a Mercedes are clearly different vehicles. I'm guessing mechanically and optically it'll be very tough to tell most of these lenses apart.

High quality fast zooms are still unique to the upper echelon of PL glass along with very fast wide angles but when it comes to primes... wow, there are a lot of good options.

If RED would have had their primes out 6 months ago they would have done well... but man... between Laguun's lenses, the fact that RED doesn't have an 18mm ready to go and the whole View Factor / Birger / Zeiss ZF thing...

Personally, the Birger/Viewfactor combo with I-data/wireless/programmable focus throw/compact/light/inexpensive with minimal breathing and plenty sharp really has my attention. I love the lenses... now it's just down to how well the VF makes focusing easier.

Man - the lens business is not one I'd want to be in right now.
 
Joel Kaye said:
I'm guessing mechanically and optically it'll be very tough to tell most of these lenses apart.
Click to expand...

Actually I wouldn't bet on it. I think we'll find that the difference is minimal yes, but that difference is in some cases A LOT.

I own many different lenses from Elites to Master Primes and there's plenty of difference there. They all have their own special characteristics and so they should. I choose lenses from this as a preference.

They all have prons and cons and the most perfect one is of course MP's .. Sometimes a bit to perfect and then I choose to shoot with other lenses.

I reckon these lenses are really good for what they are and that they will revolutionize our industry in some ways, but I don't think they'll completely out charm other lenses. The price point will be a winner for the masses but the question is if it's a winner for the ones who can choose freely.

After all there's a difference between a Subaru, Porsche and a Ferrari - even if they all go really fast.
 
Matthew Rogers said:
So is ISCO and Schott part of the same company (both owned by the Zeiss foundation?) It would just seem weird that ISCO or Schott (if they are both a part of Zeiss) would compete with Zeiss since these lenses could very well take away business from the Zeiss Ultra/Master Prime lines.
Matthew
Click to expand...

Hi,

They are separate businesses, so that they can compete. It's been shown many times that joining 2 similar companies produces negative shareholder value.

Stephen
 
my vote stephen.. you would be an interesting beta tester..

what do you jan think or do not think?.. :)
 
weirdcrew said:
I reckon these lenses are really good for what they are and that they will revolutionize our industry in some ways, but I don't think they'll completely out charm other lenses.
Click to expand...

I agree with you there. No doubt.

The real question is how much rental business are these cheaper lens solutions going to take away because people are buying instead of renting? I think you'll see rentals of high end lenses stay flat while total 35mm production skyrockets in the coming years.

These lenses (RED, Canon, Zeiss, ISCO) will impact the marketplace somehow. It'll be interesting.
 
laguun said:
p.s.
i would strictly recommend anyone who is in the market for used/old lenses to hold their breath for the next 14 days.
Click to expand...

3 days to go and peope are turning blue... (or quite possibly RED with the new RED PRIME 1.8 update)

tick tick tick :sarcasm:
 
Joel Kaye said:
I agree with you there. No doubt.

The real question is how much rental business are these cheaper lens solutions going to take away because people are buying instead of renting? I think you'll see rentals of high end lenses stay flat while total 35mm production skyrockets in the coming years.

These lenses (RED, Canon, Zeiss, ISCO) will impact the marketplace somehow. It'll be interesting.
Click to expand...

I think these kinds of lenses will do much better in smaller markets like mine. The budgets around here are no $100,000+ budgets for commercials, but more in the $10,000-$20,000 range. So they aren't looking much at the Ultra Primes/S4's, but more the SuperSpeed and StandardSpeed lenses. And why not? Those older lenses still produce a great image, and if it's going to SD, it's much less of an issue. However, if I can offer lenses that are better optically (and that all has to do with a matter of taste and the effect you are going for), but rent for $300-$400 a day, I think there will be some takers.

The real question is, if they are optically and mechanically as good as Ultra Primes (optics I'm not too worried about, mechanics we'll see), will productions still get Ultras when they can spend half as much for lenses just as good. Basically, will people still pay for the name at that point? We'll see.

Post some grabs and some pictures of the actual lenses Laguun!

Matthew
 
this is a little like the crisis at the moment. Does anybody really think that it could be possible for an company, which is a sister/brother company from another, can build competetive products "against" the sister with the same material (glass) and in a same quality but with a price around that what Laguun is saying here? Just think on the necessary power of a distribution needed to bring the products on the road. Even if you think on maybe 4 or 5 other companies trying to introduce new primes at NAB.
Even if you calculate, that every set of Zeiss HS Mark I and II must be replaced in the next 6 years - how many lenses you can sell ?
 
Martin Ludwig said:
this is a little like the crisis at the moment. Does anybody really think that it could be possible for an company, which is a sister/brother company from another, can build competetive products "against" the sister with the same material (glass) and in a same quality but with a price around that what Laguun is saying here? Just think on the necessary power of a distribution needed to bring the products on the road. Even if you think on maybe 4 or 5 other companies trying to introduce new primes at NAB.
Even if you calculate, that every set of Zeiss HS Mark I and II must be replaced in the next 6 years - how many lenses you can sell ?
Click to expand...

Yes, I think that Zeiss can do that. It´s a sort of "second brand": they can´t sell a Zeiss lens set almost as good as their top sets for half the price or less, but they can use another brand not directly related to do so. Otherwise, they simply loose a potential market of a few thousand lens sets (wich is a lot!)
Remember that Arri made a total of 17,000 cine cameras in its 90 years´history, while Red, SI 2k, Phantom, etc. already add some 5,000 cameras to the PL market. -
 
The market is changing very rapidly from a video camera style market to a cine style. Tons of shoots that would have normally used a camera like the Varicam with a broadcast lens are now using the RED and cine lenses. That makes a huge difference because it's a much bigger market. Of course, you aren't going to capture the DIY/HGTV/ETC market because they need an ENG style camera. But anyone doing corporate videos and commercials are going to be much more open to cine lenses and accessories. Really, what RED has done is open up the cine style market to many people/companies that would have gone that route because there were no good PL mount video cameras.

Matthew
 
Guidofilippi said:
Yes, I think that Zeiss can do that. It´s a sort of "second brand": they can´t sell a Zeiss lens set almost as good as their top sets for half the price or less, but they can use another brand not directly related to do so. Otherwise, they simply loose a potential market of a few thousand lens sets (wich is a lot!)
Remember that Arri made a total of 17,000 cine cameras in its 90 years´history, while Red, SI 2k, Phantom, etc. already add some 5,000 cameras to the PL market. -
Click to expand...

you should know that Zeiss is also developing a new serie of primes together with bandpro. they will show them at NAB
 
Hi,

I think a lower cost Zeiss series will do very well.

Stephen
 
how are you stephen?.. please do not ignore your friends.. :wink:
 
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