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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Update...

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ReddBaronn said:
I unfortunately do not have access to my school's equipment this semester or over the summer. In the fall I get access to bolexs (and then I "get" to pay for film).

I'm trying to work as many shoots this semester as possible (including DIT for a Red shoot, should be interesting)

It's funny though; If all you need is a camera, a vision, and the ability to work creatively with others (and less than $1000), why do so many film festivals expect 16mm, beta, or 35mm submissions?
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I think it's worth underlining what Robert Loughlin said - if you're planning to use the school Bolex cameras, buying a RED Scarlet with the fixed lens and NOT using the Bolex would most likely save you money. So buying a Bolex yourself is the worst possible advice. Furthermore, you'd be able to use the RED long after you left school.

The biggest problem with this is that we know Scarlet isn't going to arrive until fall, and it's very possible Jim's announcement that started this thread is warning us that it might be delayed a few more months. I have great respect and admiration for Jim, but any project designed to revolutionize an industry hits unknowable snags every once in a while, and that makes delivery dates inherently problematic.

Otherwise, Jim's advice is sound: Don't buy what you can't afford unless you know for sure it will make you money. If you can afford about $4,000, you can buy a fixed lens Scarlet. If you have the cash, Jim says buy. If you have to borrow and don't know where the money's coming from, Jim says don't buy.

By the way, bear in mind that you may need a more powerful computer than you have now, with much more disk space, to handle transcoding and editing of RED footage. Don't forget to add that into your budget.

If you can't afford a RED, scale down and get something like a HV20. But bear in mind that, although you can get great images from it, the manual controls are hard to use. This is really the biggest difference between amateur and professional equipment today. Amateur equipment now offers "good enough" image quality, but you'll go nuts trying to focus and expose as you want to.

Hope that helps.

D
 
I will never understand why you can get an hv20 for $550. You'd think all those "auto" features and extra image processing would be more expensive to develop than a camera that just shoots manual.

I probably will wait until I can afford a scarlet, whenever that may be. And in the meantime I'll write more scripts than I'll know what to do with.
 
Buy a Scarlet.

It'll look sooo much better with so much less pain.

You're already paying $30k on tuition a year. At least have a decent tool that doesn't make you afraid to shoot.

The bolex will make you careful but it'll also inhibit experimentation. An HV20 is fine and dandy but you'll always be frustrated with its results. A high quality lens in front of a quality sensor means you don't have to jump through all the hoops and battle the overly contrasty sensor.

A lot of people try to save a buck in college and that's a terrible waste. Students who live off campus to save a few dollars on rent. Students who ride the bus and don't have a car. Anything that gets in the way of your education is a waste, not a savings.
 
what are the school's requirements? When I was in film school you had to take film course and shoot on film (which i'm happy that it was required). If they will let you shoot on anything, then maybe it makes sense to buy a camera. But, having been around for a while I can say it's not worth going broke over. Buy the best camera you can for what you can afford, and do lots of research and testing before you buy. Also, don't be afraid of renting. It affords you the luxury of using the tools that are appropriate for each of your projects. Yes, you have to have things planned out and organized, but as you'll find out filmmaking is a lot of organization.

As to the HV20 controls. Yes, it's not the easiest camera to operate, but at the pricepoint and image quality you should be willing to compromise, or a better way to put it is work within the parameters of the camera. Search around, some nice work has been done with cameras like this. And you'll fond people have come up with innovative workarounds for some of the limitations.
 
Jannard said:
Be careful with your spending. Invest only in things you know can make you money. This economic situation will not correct itself for a few years (not weeks or months).

Jim
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It takes fire to burn through the forest before new tree will grow. Let the sickly old trees such as the overpriced camera vendors, companies making junky software and hardware burn to the ground. Let new healthy trees survive and new trees sprouts.

Bad times create excellent opportunities for the survivors. The television and film business won't change unless it's forced to. This economic situation might be a huge benefit to Red, as it might speed the adoption of Digital Cinematography.
 
stevesherrick said:
what are the school's requirements? When I was in film school you had to take film course and shoot on film (which i'm happy that it was required). If they will let you shoot on anything, then maybe it makes sense to buy a camera. But, having been around for a while I can say it's not worth going broke over. Buy the best camera you can for what you can afford, and do lots of research and testing before you buy. Also, don't be afraid of renting. It affords you the luxury of using the tools that are appropriate for each of your projects. Yes, you have to have things planned out and organized, but as you'll find out filmmaking is a lot of organization.
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The first two years (2d semester Freshman year and both semesters Sophomore year) we are required to shoot on film--which I actually agree with (Freshman year we were also required to edit on flatbeds). Junior year and for our Senior thesis we get the choice of shooting on video or film. However, the school's video equipment is sparse, and the HD cameras are only for Grad students. Renting from New York City is an option, I know some seniors have done it, but it's a 5-6 hour drive into the city, which adds a lot more gas money into the budget.

Another reason why I'd say it's better to shoot on a format that has higher resolution than SD video is because I'd like to have my projects to show later. Now, there are inexpensive HD cameras out there, but for their price compared to the prices of the Scarlets, it makes me hesitant. Film is the best for this because its resolution capabilities are virtually limitless (at this point--where 2K and 4K aren't display standards yet).
 
Despite the hard times, there is good news on my end. I'll be shooting my first Red One short film this weekend. We got a fantastic cast and crew who are volunteering the time and gear for this shoot, and I owe much of it to the Red One. Without it, I don't think we could have gotten the resources we have now.

Thanks Red.
 
Robert W. Loughlin II said:
The first two years (2d semester Freshman year and both semesters Sophomore year) we are required to shoot on film--which I actually agree with (Freshman year we were also required to edit on flatbeds). Junior year and for our Senior thesis we get the choice of shooting on video or film. However, the school's video equipment is sparse, and the HD cameras are only for Grad students. Renting from New York City is an option, I know some seniors have done it, but it's a 5-6 hour drive into the city, which adds a lot more gas money into the budget.

Another reason why I'd say it's better to shoot on a format that has higher resolution than SD video is because I'd like to have my projects to show later. Now, there are inexpensive HD cameras out there, but for their price compared to the prices of the Scarlets, it makes me hesitant. Film is the best for this because its resolution capabilities are virtually limitless (at this point--where 2K and 4K aren't display standards yet).
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When the Scarlet fixed lens camera is released (and that timetable could vary based on a whole bunch of unforeseen things that could happen) I think it might be a good option for you. But as has been mentioned you'll need some computing power to back it up. Just plan on doubling your camera purchase price if you want accessories, and a decent computer to work on.

This will be a great camera to work with based on all of the information that has been presented to this point.
 
2/3 cinema is for me. There are lots of cheap c-mount lens options, meaning less money and better imaging options.

I have to shoot film for my coursework.
 
stevesherrick said:
When the Scarlet fixed lens camera is released (and that timetable could vary based on a whole bunch of unforeseen things that could happen) I think it might be a good option for you. But as has been mentioned you'll need some computing power to back it up. Just plan on doubling your camera purchase price if you want accessories, and a decent computer to work on.

This will be a great camera to work with based on all of the information that has been presented to this point.
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Yea, that's what I was looking at. That or the variable 2/3, if I can get my FD lenses to work efficiently with it. All in all, RED is pretty exciting for the industry, but especially so for young filmmakers.

Robert Sanders said:
Hey, and don't forget that NETFLIX just reported record profits for the 4th quarter of 2008. That's major! That means the rental market is thriving. Which means that entertainment production can possibly weather this storm.
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Well, the way I see it, the more crap that happens out in the world, the more people want to escape from it--and that's what movies are really for. For telling stories and pulling audiences into another place.
 
Jim, I would like to know what you and the Red team have to say about the recent Creative Cow Magazine's interview with John Galt, Panavision Senior Vice President of Advanced Digital Imaging.

Personally, as a movie audience, what I care about is what I see on the screen ahead. As a filmmaker and a Producer, what I care about is that the camera's footage can match in performance the footage of the blockbuster films and offer all the possibilities for post manipulation.

They talk about rentals, but obviously most of us want to make a living making films AND producing audiovisual content. The Camera is our bread and butter.

It sounded a bit desperate. Is this a sign of the economy? :)

EDIT
 
Robert W. Loughlin II said:
Film is the best for this because its resolution capabilities are virtually limitless (at this point--where 2K and 4K aren't display standards yet).
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if i'm not mistaken, scientists place the 'resolution' of film somewhere in between 4k and 5k. obviously its heavily debated because film is not digital (duh). but to me, the cost of 35 equipment rental and film stock clearly makes a red one "the best for this." i know quite a few places that have 2k or 4k, and if thats not an option, it should still be cheaper to transfer red footage over to film. che looked unreal.

you bring up something very interesting. (this should probably be moved to another part of the forum, so i apologize) i am a film production student at USC and I'm not sure how I feel about studying on film. In fact, there are many rumors here of a complete switch to digital. Don't get me wrong, I would love to work with film (purely for fun, RED has my undivided attention). but to be most competitive in this quickly changing field, i feel film students right know are at great advantage. because most professionals must spend most of their time being, well, professional. film students have four years and no major commitments other than to learn. spending all that time learning digital could give us an invaluable leg up, something that will only happen at this very unique transitional stage. PS we just got a ridiculous amount of money from george lucas, and i would love nothing more than to see a bunch of red cameras here at USC.

i apologize for again being off topic, but i just read michael bay is remaking the Birds, and there is a Bonnie and Clyde remake in the works starring Hilary Duff. Will someone please hold my hand while we have a moment of silence for whatever respect was left in our art? :bye2:
 
ReddBaronn said:
2/3 cinema is for me. There are lots of cheap c-mount lens options, meaning less money and better imaging options.

I have to shoot film for my coursework.
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I can see schools eventually replacing their Arri S's and Bolex's with 2/3" Scarlet Cinemas and continuing to use their existing lens inventories. One professor at my Alma maters theater department continued to teach razor blade editing of reel to reel audio cue tapes for stage plays long after the industry had switched to digital computer based systems.

As long as it exists, I think learning to shoot on film is a great educational tool. Arguments about visual qualities aside, it will make better photographers as it forces certain disciplines important to the craft(like learning to use a light meter and economically planning shots).
 
Good that the global economic crisis has been raised for discussion on this forum. My view is that its going to be really bad for quite a long time (many years) - till all the mountains of debt and speculative bubbles has worked their way out. Its also true that the adoption of new technologies can be acelerated in such a time. Good examples are Carnagie Steel becoming dominant as a result of the 1860-1890 depression, and IBM becoming dominant as a result of the 1930's depression. If Red Digital Cinema (Jim) has big enough pockets, I wouldn't be suprised if it burns of its rivals this time around. It is a truely remarakble advance in camera technology.


AquaVideoRed206 said:
This is for the student that posted earlier (or anyone interested with what is going on at the low cost end.)

Steve is right, you can do amazing stuff with very low cost tools these days. I just bought two Canon HG20s for $549 each (B&H - now $599 but probably just as cheap elsewhere). These are successors (2 gens newer) to the HV20, and provide true 1920 x 1080 recording at 24 Mbs (AVCHD/H.264) 24p or 30p to an internal 60 gig harddrive or to SD cards. While it won't provide all of the image niceties of the much more expensive cameras - it is pretty damn good and a great learning tool that, given good lighting and a creative eye, is capable of producing images that would hold up quite well in almost any venue. I have a REDONE (and will upgrade to X) but bought these to experiment with 3D work and haven't been disappointed.
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I'm hanging out for an EPIC but also making do with much older camera technology for the time being. Its a real pain, but it sure does make for learning the hard way.
 
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