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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Don't forget...

Steve Gibby said:
Yes he has put a lot of much appreciated energy into suggestions for the cinema production capabilities of RED One and the future camera – but IMO almost no attention to the EFP capabilities of any of those cameras – even though RED Team has stated from the beginning that RED One (and now the DSMC cameras) are definitely also targeted at the EFP market – and stills market now. IMO Brook is fully just zeroed in on his style of production – and many times forgets to acknowledge and be sensitive to the diversity of backgrounds represented on RED User – and then when he does, he is not very facile in the acronyms and technology needs of other industries which RED One is used in. For a mid-20’s guy a few years out of film school at Chapman College, Brook is amazingly loaded with info. IMO what RED is getting at is that Brook needs to be more sensitive sometimes in how he words his posts.
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My lack of attention towards EFP is generally because I have zero experience in that area. I absolutely do not view it as a lesser form of production in any way - I just don't have the knowledge or experience to back my thoughts in that department. I could probably form some ideas regarding camera function and accessories in that genre of production... but ultimately I would be making it up. I don't like to pretend to be something I'm not... so I would never pretend to know much about what an EFP shooter would want or need out of a camera. As far as terminology is concerned, it's simply easier for me to write "ENG/EFP" instead of ENG and EFP. I understand that they are different and don't mean to insult if it appears that I have lumped them into one discipline.

I do understand the trepidation regarding that perspective, however. To the stereotypical blinder-wearing film guy, one might see two areas of production merged into one because they use "video cameras" that look essentially the same... whereas cine-style production uses "film cameras" that look very different. I am not that guy, fear not. :)

So my apparent lack of sensitivity towards varying styles of production is not not not me trying to shrug it off. It's just me focusing on my area of expertise and experience while leaving the rest for those who work in different areas of production. That's you, Gibby. :)

Also, what sometimes reads as harsh or insulting out of my fingers is not nearly so bad when it's out of my mouth. It's not that I'm a different person when hiding behind a keyboard... it's that I just have a certain style of writing that can send the wrong signals to those that don't know me well. I have a very dry and sarcastic sense of humor... and anybody like me will tell you that those traits rarely translate to text well. I'll rattle a dozen thoughts and ideas off in 30 seconds with great excitement and slap the post button on the way out. I'm way better at delicate phrasing in person.

I should also note that as a DIT in the high-end cinema crowd, I find myself defending RED for 13+ hours of every day. When time is money, there is a big difference between saying "I suspect that they invented the 4-pin LEMO standard for its increased functionality when compared to the 3-pin Fischer output. It is a similar connector, but provides additional accessory support and forward thinking. Furthermore, since the RED ONE is designed to appeal to multiple markets, it was not RED's concern to match the Arri standard. It's actually a great output with some nice functionality, but I do wish it was an Arri-style Fischer output" and "I dunno, because that's just how they made it. I hope they change it for the next camera too. Just use this adapter in the mean time." You can only answer the question "what are these bullshit RED plugs?" [direct quote, that's not me saying that] so many times before you start cutting out the sunshine and match the attitude of the other person for brevity's sake. I really do love the guys and the camera, don't worry. I hope nobody takes this paragraph the wrong way... because I don't mean it like that. It's just an efficiency thing for me.

So yeah, I'm working on adjusting the apparent attitude to make my ideas easier to swallow. It'll be the same me posting from here onwards... but I'll try to spend more time with my posts to make the attitude in text match the friendly attitude I generally write my posts with. In the mean time, I'd just hate to see ideas ignored because it seems like I'm being a passive-aggressive jerk [when I'm really not!]. Don't worry, if I'm ever trying to be a jerk on the forums... you'll know it. :devil:


So far RED has rocked the house with reception to these ideas. A quick re-reading of my ergonomics post will reveal that RED either listened to every single idea I wrote and followed it... or at least didn't prevent an accessory from filling the void. They freakin' nailed it.

That's why I think the idea of genre-focused modules would be so fantastic. One of my original fears with the Epic was that RED would try to create a camera that was a jack of all trades but a master of none. As you said, RED has tackled three target audiences with this camera: high-end cinema, EFP and stills photography. Those are three very different trades to tackle with one body.

That's why this module idea RED has come up with is so fantastic. You won't see many cinema guys grabbing the stills handgrips for the camera... just as you probably won't see many stills guys grabbing the ports module [but they could if they wanted to!]. I think that there should be some more focused modules to tackle the high-end cinema market and EFP market with the same specificity as the stills handgrip.

The ports module is very nice, but it essentially matches the design of the RED ONE [with a few significant upgrades like the inclusion of BNCs]. While this is great for a lot of genres [and functional for others, as proven by the RED ONE's success in the high-end cinema market], it could be better in many ways. I don't want the ports module to go away... not at all.

But in the same way that certain elements of the RED ONE's design might not have been perfect for EFP, other elements are not perfect for high-end cinema production.

So each genre of production could have its own perfectly focused box... designed by the community that uses the camera! Beyond that, the really really exciting part of this idea is that it would never take anything away from another genre of production. I could have my cinema-style outputs, specific ergonomic design and bracketry that I'm looking for... and you could have exactly what you're looking for in a different module [the absence of detail is just because I'm not sure what you want in a camera... again because I'm not an EFP guy]. Furthermore, those that don't like how we "LA feature guys" do it over here could buy a different module - perhaps the port module or perhaps something that RED hasn't even thought of yet. It makes everybody happy... especially RED. They get to sell more accessories! :)

So that's my thought... just restated a little.

Thanks!
 
Brook,

Thanks for shedding more light on what motivates you. No matter which style of image making media we work in, they all fall into the overall family of communication arts. Clear communication is the key to having people understand where we're at and what our agenda is. I think you did an excellent job in your post of communicating what motivates you.

Since I work mainly in EFP production I've been more than happy to carry that info ball on these RED forums through the years. My agenda has been: to help people understand alternative field workflows, learn what I can from others, be a contributing part of the overall RED User community, find new associates, and network my business wherever possible.

I love working in all three styles represented here on RED User: cine, EFP, and stills. It has just been a matter of circumstance that kept me mostly in EFP in recent years, but I never pass a chance to work in cine style, and when the urge hits I really dig taking out one of my DSLRs and go shoot some pics - or integrate shooting some stills into a cine or EFP project I'm working on. I've always appreciated the commonality of art between cine style, EFP style, and shooting stills: exposure, framing, composition, focus, etc. Until the mid '90's, working in all three essentially required mastering mostly separate technologies. With convergence in technology of those three divisions though, it blows my mind as an artist how the same technology can be leveraged out into all three mediums. Pretty cool I'd say...

Media and technology convergence is not without its growing pains. Companies like RED are spearheading the movement, but its not easy for working professionals in previously separate industries to now get our arms around the concepts of the increasing commonality of technology usage, and the mushrooming options we have to express our art and make a living.

I've learned a lot on RED User from members who work in all three industries - and I expect to continue to learn new things from them looking forward.

I really like the module concept you mentioned. I think it has a lot of merit and validity. That said, RED is focused in on developing the DSMC cameras, new sensors, and new accessories. I'm not sure they're up to tackling the whole module concept, for various reasons we may not be aware of. It may be that the modules will be developed by good 3rd party companies - like ET, View Factor, etc.

Your ergonomics input was well thought out. There have been a lot of others of us who have been submitting ergonomics comments (and other features input) directly to RED which paralleled many of your concepts. For a modular camera there are only so many ways to go with the brain, then working outward from there is where you differentiate the usage of the camera via lenses, accessories, etc. RED has the flick on that. Within their time and resource constraints I see them enabling as much as they can in the camera brains and accessories they feel the need to produce - then leaving it to good 3rd party suppliers to develop products outward from there for each industry and sub-industry within the three intended uses of the cameras.

Again, thanks for clearing the air on your thoughts. We all have the same goal - that RED cameras be the best they can be, while retaining their modularity and flexibility. That's good common ground...
 
Steve Gibby said:
I really like the module concept you mentioned. I think it has a lot of merit and validity. That said, RED is focused in on developing the DSMC cameras, new sensors, and new accessories. I'm not sure they're up to tackling the whole module concept, for various reasons we may not be aware of. It may be that the modules will be developed by good 3rd party companies - like ET, View Factor, etc.
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That is an interesting point... I'm sure they are up to their ears in working on the cameras. If third party support is permitted [which I can only assume it will be when the specifications are locked down], it would be good if folks already had a head start. While it is impossible to know the specifications to which an accessory must be designed now... our requirements for an accessory are not likely to change in that time. Now is the time to put the pen to paper and start work on these puppies. It took a long time for the industry to turn the RED ONE into a fully outfitted production camera [for out-of-the-case-and-on-to-a-head cinema production, that is]... and both RED and the collective "we" have learned from that. I'm looking to hit the ground in a full sprint with these cameras... that's why I've been so outspoken with my ideas and feedback. I hope I'm not alone. :)
 
Gibby,

I have total respect for your accomplishments and it is true to say that I have very little ENG experience. I think you are also right on the money when you say Red's market is mostly gonna be ENG EFP people. Volumes dictate that.

My contention was that this is a thread about the fact that Cinema folks are bolting a lot of shit on the camera. There are some very simple things that can be done in the design that will A) let us bolt less things on the camera and B) let us bolt the remaining things on cleanly.

My boss at work (the DP) is not gonna let me eye focus the camera. Therefore, I need a cinetape and rock solid focus marks on the lens at all temperatures. If I tell my boss that Steve Gibby said I should eye focus, he will tell me that's nice and hand me the cinetape. :biggrin: I don't think Brook's request to let us easily bolt other things on the camera will stop Steve Gibby from eye focusing, but it should will make my life easier.

The real dream will be modules that have the ports I need for me and a module that has the ports for you and we can go crazy on our own industry specific threads. :weight_lift:

Sorry about the punctuation and late response. I am surfing in Sayulita MX and the internet sucks here. Much respect and love and I hope you have a happy holidays.:biggrin:
 
I see a new paradigm where EFP & Cinema merge into one! Where filmmakers can eye focus their features and EFP guys can take advantage of cine-DOF
 
Hey Clayton,

Great way to vacation - warm water waves, fresh fish, mangos, papayas - I've been on many extended surfing trips way down on the Mexican mainland. Wish I was there!

I think the suggestions for ways to configure all the cables and connectors on Epic are very good ones. That said, my guess is that RED will make the brains and accessories they feel they need to - then leave it up to 3rd party developers to develop accessory packs and modules outward from there. The cool thing about an ultra-modular camera is you can build it outward into whatever you need.

I think Brook, you, and for that matter all of us no matter what styles we shoot in, are interested in hitting the ground running with ready to rock setups - thus all the discussion in advance on accessories and setups. I know when I shoot cine style I always have heavier setups with spaghetti all over them - much more so than the non-hardlined EFP setups. I think you guys are on the right path to figure this out as early as possible. If you don't, your competition in your workspace will.

Peace braddah...

Snag a few barrels down there in Sayulita for me...I'm about ready to bust out the credit card and jet off to somewhere with warm waves myself (Hawaii this time).
 
Richard Darge said:
I see a new paradigm where EFP & Cinema merge into one! Where filmmakers can eye focus their features and EFP guys can take advantage of cine-DOF
Click to expand...

I would agree with that. Technology will eventually enable that. But change in large crew productions will happen slowly for a number for factors - comfort zones, familiarity, tradition, legacy investments, unions, repeatability, extremely shallow DOF shots, rental houses, and many more.

Right now with RED One, for non-union productions shooting non-narrative features (nature, etc.), and most non-hardlined EFP productions (docs, sports, wildlife, travel, food, cultures, lifestyle, etc.) eye focusing is already widely used. With RED One on our EFP productions we use shallow DOF regularly for our inbumps, outbumps, and creative montages. To me, if an EFP genre calls for it, the more cinematic the shots, the better. Wide open aperture eye focusing is a real challenge, but in non-narrative EFP genres its being achieved with RED, on more static shots, and shots without a lot of to lens/away from lens subject movement.

Obviously the core technology for a cine, EFP, or stills setup on Epic and Scarlet will be essentially the same. It is the lenses, certain accessories, and the way the cameras are used that will differentiate the field workflows.

The cool thing with a modular, flexible camera system is that it gives you a lot of options for equipment setups, and how you use the camera. IMO there is no right or wrong way to use RED One, and EPIC and Scarlet to come - just the better way to use them for each particular production or portion thereof. Even guys who work all week in traditional focus environments have the option to take RED cameras out on their days off and eye focus some stock footage or a moonlight EFP project - all by themselves if necessary. Conversely, guys who eye focus all week, also have the option to traditionally focus if they get a project where that is the best choice for workflow.

What you're describing is what I like to call hybrid cine/EFP production - using combinations of cine and EFP equipment and techniques, and also quite often adding in 35mm stills lenses. That is primarily how I've been using RED One every since I received my first RED One camera.

That obviously can't be done on certain crew situations and genres of production. But when hybrid equipment and techniques can be used, it is effective and way fun!

I'm not saying it will be on Epic or Scarlet, but I wouldn't be surprised to eventually see a user-programmable, multi-point auto focus systems which could solve the repeatability of focus needs. Essentially you would rehearse the scene, with actors walking through their marks, lock the auto focus tracking onto the object you want in focus, take the scene, while video village cross checks the results in real time on a high-resolution monitor, and if wanted then roll back the recorded footage to micro-check how the focus was.

Way cool times we're working in...:gun:
 
Wonder if 1080P is going to have a hardlined(wired/wireless) EFP/ENG use. Can the Live View 720P be used for hardlined use?
 
Joseph Ward said:
Wonder if 1080P is going to have a hardlined(wired/wireless) EFP/ENG use. Can the Live View 720P be used for hardlined use?
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Good questions. Until the tech specs for the new cameras are locked down and announced, I don't think we'll be able to answer your questions.

Hardlined EFP (and ENG) requires multiple functions on the cameras to be controllable by the technical director in the control room or truck. Whether Epic and/or Scarlet will have that level of remote control in their final specs will remain to be seen.

The preliminary specs show smart camera mounts, electronics to lenses, etc.

Hardlined EFP and hardlined ENG are very big markets for equipment. Many of the entities in those styles already use RED One for their peripheral non-hardlined EFP b-roll production - the pre-shot footage they roll into their hardlned productions.
 
Brook Willard said:
My lack of attention towards EFP is generally because I have zero experience in that area. I absolutely do not view it as a lesser form of production in any way - I just don't have the knowledge or experience to back my thoughts in that department. I could probably form some ideas regarding camera function and accessories in that genre of production... but ultimately I would be making it up. I don't like to pretend to be something I'm not... so I would never pretend to know much about what an EFP shooter would want or need out of a camera. As far as terminology is concerned, it's simply easier for me to write "ENG/EFP" instead of ENG and EFP. I understand that they are different and don't mean to insult if it appears that I have lumped them into one discipline.
Click to expand...

Instead of distancing oneself, (as in, "that's not my bag, baby") perhaps one should take the opportunity and embrace alternate types of shooting environments by doing research in those areas as well. It's a huge internet out there.

Here's a head start:
http://tinyurl.com/86mbb6

;-) Meant in good fun, with perhaps a point to be taken. (And intended for plenty of people other than yourself). Understanding other shooting environments can only help one become more well-rounded and professional. They also are used more and more within Cine style productions these days as Gibby alluded to.

Brook Willard said:
I should also note that as a DIT in the high-end cinema crowd, I find myself defending RED for 13+ hours of every day. When time is money, there is a big difference between saying "I suspect that they invented the 4-pin LEMO standard for its increased functionality when compared to the 3-pin Fischer output. It is a similar connector, but provides additional accessory support and forward thinking. Furthermore, since the RED ONE is designed to appeal to multiple markets, it was not RED's concern to match the Arri standard. It's actually a great output with some nice functionality, but I do wish it was an Arri-style Fischer output" and "I dunno, because that's just how they made it. I hope they change it for the next camera too. Just use this adapter in the mean time." You can only answer the question "what are these bullshit RED plugs?" [direct quote, that's not me saying that] so many times before you start cutting out the sunshine and match the attitude of the other person for brevity's sake. I really do love the guys and the camera, don't worry. I hope nobody takes this paragraph the wrong way... because I don't mean it like that. It's just an efficiency thing for me.
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As someone who also has worked on a few of these types of productions, I can understand where you are coming from. The atmosphere and etiquette is quite an interesting thing and varies from production to production. Often, there can be very high pressure situations, with very little time for explanation. Even so, I would say that the above comments you receive ("what are these bullshit RED plugs?", etc.) arise out of a combination a several factors, and not just that the RED ONE Camera has some unique, shall we say, design choices.

For instance:

1) Digital / Film: As we know, there are plenty of DPs, Operators, ACs, etc, that are resisting Digital at any chance they get. Whether this is job security, not wanting to learn new technology, or just having a passion for working with film, this can often times encourage people to zero in on something that isn't as big a deal as they would make it out to be. While slightly inconvenient, I'm sure some people have gone out of their way to make it seem like a bigger deal than it is.

2) Youth: Treating the new guy with a lack of respect or giving him/her a hard time just seems to be something that is part of the human condition. This can be amplified in this industry and especially on big budget sets. If you are young and in a highly technical position, sometimes this can make other people feel uneasy or threatened, even jealous. Keep in mind that as a DIT or Data Capture Technician (and a young one at that), you may be earning more money than many crew members on the set that have been in the business for many years. Most people realize this and may or may not be that thrilled with the idea. In my first few years, I experienced this, but now to a much lesser degree.

3) Personalities / Perspective: It would be good if all Film Schools had a mandatory Psychology program as well. On set, it gets much easier as you realize how and when to deal with people the more and more you do things. One thing that is good to keep in mind, is that it's just a movie (or other form of production). As crazy as the environments can get, at the end of the day, people go home to their families and continue their lives. You will find that no matter the situation, you get through it, the show goes on, and you come back another day to make the magic all over again. While you want to try your best every day, it's not always necessary to get too defensive when you are being questioned. A lot of times, I think people can see a new face and think it's a chance to test the person. If they get a reaction, then they may try and push your buttons more. If you realize this is nothing new, and shrug it off, you'll probably have an easier day. :) Also, at the same time, having a respectful attitude and taking a modest approach can go a long way to not ruffling feathers.

4) Comfort Level: Your not always going to be able to please everyone or make everyone understand. It also may take a much longer time for others to come to the conclusions you have about the technology. I have some colleagues that are well respected throughout the industry that are slow adopters. For me and my situation, RED fits perfectly and I can use it and recommend it knowing it is the right tool for the job. I also am used to certain work-arounds or workflow conditions. I accept them. Someone else may not consider that within their comfort zone (yet) and may resist the technology until it is. I know several people that have changed their minds after certain features were enabled or workflow options were released.

I'm happy to see these discussions taking place and think for the most part they are very constructive. RED certainly would not be what it is today without the community that surrounds it and continues to grow. Thank you to everyone who continues to contribute to these thoughtful discussions. Let's keep them going and try to consider many points of view while doing so.
 
Great Post Casey... Great post. I can't express how true your last paragraph is.

Casey Green said:
I'm happy to see these discussions taking place and think for the most part they are very constructive. RED certainly would not be what it is today without the community that surrounds it and continues to grow. Thank you everyone who continues to contribute to these thoughtful discussions. Let's keep them going and try to consider many points of view while doing so.
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HI Jarred

HI Jarred

Yes that is a great paragraph. I'd like to note that the renders of the RED1 did not show cables. The sight of the RED1 camera that leads this thread should INMHO greatly motivate any designer who loves clean and orderly structure.

I'm hoping to see cables in the renders of the new Scarlet/Epic setups. So that when Brook gets his new camera the add on pieces will fit on in a better cleaner way.

I'm thinking here: cables in guides, cables close to the body, orderly ways to add and remove accessories provided by RED. maybe even modules for specific purposes. maybe side modules? maybe accessories such as focus/transmission/distance measuring built into modules or standard pieces affixed with RED custom mounts which tightly integrate with the camera shape.
 
hey Tj :)

I am glad that you guys are starting to understand the foundation of modular concept.... even if its subconscious through your dialogue :)

at the end of the day, I think we can all agree.. One camera configuration can't make everyone happy.
 
Jarred beat me to it Casey - very nice post indeed - especially your last paragraph, which summarizes why we're all here and how RED user should function.

One note: the EFP info on the Wikipedia link (tinyurl) you posted is very limited in scope and definition. I'd like to suggest that anyone who is curious about the divisions of EFP (hardlined and non-hardlined) and their relationship to ENG might want to visit my "EFP & ENG Definitions and Explanations" sticky page at the top of the EFP/ENG and RED forum here on RED User.

Link: http://205.234.135.241/forum/showthread.php?t=1105

I wrote and posted that sticky about 21 months ago to help RED User members and visitors who may not be clear on EFP and ENG styles of production and their similarities and differences. It was also written to help give readers some fresh ideas on ways to put their RED One cameras to added use, spread their skill sets, and hopefully make some more money.

I haven't updated that sticky to include the potential EFP and ENG uses of Epic and Scarlet, but I'll do so after the specs for those cameras are finalized. If accessorized and lensed for it, the preliminary specs for both the s35 and FF35 Epic and all models of Scarlet show great promise for use in non-hardlined EFP production. Some Scarlet models may also be used for single person crew news gathering (ENG).

Being an experienced EFP guy yourself, you know that each year non-hardlined EFP production is by far the most numerous style of production in the entire motion media spectrum of production styles - and RED One is an extremely capable tool for it.

I hope the info on my sticky can help some of you others to understand EFP and ENG, and to potentially spread your work genres to include some of the genres within it.

We've strayed off the original topic of this thread, but the peripheral info presented by everyone has helped create a healthy exchange of ideas. - and that's what we're here for.
 
Brook Willard said:
That's why I think the idea of genre-focused modules would be so fantastic.
Click to expand...

I don't know if it's an option, but it is a great idea, if RED could take it on....it would eliminate one of the last divisive conversations, if EFP shooters could have EFP modules and cine folks could have cine modules...

...and people who have a need for both could have both, depending on the situation...or rent as needed.

Although I am guessing from what we have seen from the renders that this will be already baked into the modular design, as in, if you don't need on-camera sound, skip the audio module altogether. Et cetera...
 
All EPIC/Scarlet specs are subject to change, but in RED's 12/3 brochure, on the "Interchangeable and upgradable everything..." page, the Pro Cinema I/O module appears to have nearly all, if not all of the I/O capability EFP workers would normally be looking for – timecode, sync, audio, and dual link HD-SDI.

Link: http://www.red.com/epic_scarlet/

Its a more comprehensive I/O module that Brook and other cine guys are asking for. I guess time will tell if RED makes such a cine breakout module or a 3rd party does it.
 
Thanks for catching that, Gibby. The module that I am dreaming of has not yet been designed... it's only been put to paper in my notebook. :) The current IO module is great for a lot of things, but I'm interested in a more specialized module.

I know you know that by now, I'm just adding further clarification.
 
Thanks guys. I'm glad to be a part of the evolution.

Gibby, you are right. The link posted was more to make a point and is definitely not the greatest source for such research.

Your sticky is definitely worth everyone's time here, and I also strongly encourage people to read it, perhaps more than once. ;-)

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=1105

I am so excited about the possibilities of the modular design of DSMC. First it must be realized, but the expansion will be endless. If RED opens the architecture years down the road, there can be some wonderful possibilities.

Jarred, Gibby.... Thanks again for the kind words. From two of the most respected people here on REDUser that means a lot.
 
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