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Rumour: Arri wants to strike back

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Cüneyt Kaya

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ok this is a rumour i heard today.....source...like every source a rumour comes from....friend talking with someone inside that company.
so i posted it in the offtopic section.


the rumour is following.

arri wants to release a 4k cam for 40k
and a smaller version for 20k

global shutter

and their biggest selling point should become: Open Source Coding...RAW

And packages with Arricam/Support/Assec. will be possibly offered.

--------

my notes on this rumour:

i dont think that an arricam itself has a chance against a red comparing price/perfomance....
but the goal to be integrated immediatly in the postworkflow sounds pretty seductive.

i know some producers who would say: arri can the same? no stress in post? more expensive, but still cheaper than 35mm? lets do it....we will save it in Post.

package deal with lenses.....would rock.
But i thought the Dalsa Arri deal is still not finished?


And i dont think that Arri can just buy sensortechnology which can compare to RED.....but who knows.
 
Its not what can be baught that makes the differance in such matters but whom ...


DogDay.
 
4K for 40K $?

I'd take 3K for ~3K $, thanks.

But open source and open formats is the future, IMHO.

No matter how good they are, redcode, cineform, etc. will be killed by open format.
 
karapetkov said:
4K for 40K?

I'd take 3K for ~3K $, thanks.

But open source and open formats is the future, IMHO.

No matter how good they are, redcode, cineform, etc. will be killed by open format.
Click to expand...


4k for 40k is expensive.
But thinking of the situation of redcode and the SDK i guess such a cam will be welcomed by big rental companys...and post production companys.

dont know how long it will take to develop the red sdk so that red can open it.
Or maybe RED should sell the SDK to the postsolution vendors.
 
I'm sure Arri, Panavision, Sony and a lot of other companies want to 'strike back.' Question is, can they and will they. Personally I'd like to see a camera that shoots RAW, QuickTime MOV ProRes and .AVI too. RAW is great and all but there are times when I'd just like to have ready to edit clips coming out of the camera.

Noah
 
ARRI will definitely make something like a 4K RAW camera, and there will definitely be some people to buy it, just as there are people who buy Sony F23's, etc. ARRI rental houses, for one thing. The RED market overlaps this, but it is not exactly the same market, just as RED overlaps Sony's professional broadcast video line but it's not exactly the same market either.

Sure, there are some people who would rather spend less, or have no choice but to spend less.

You can find cars that have most of the same features as cars that cost three-times as much, but that doesn't mean that there isn't a market for the more expensive car.

ARRI really doesn't have to make a $20,000 4K RAW camera, for example, just as they don't have to make a 35mm movie camera that costs only $20,000. If they can demonstrate some advantages for buying something more expensive, either because of features or quality of workmanship or ruggedness or advantageous workflow, they will find buyers. Afterall, we have Sony, Panasonic, Canon, etc. all competing with each other but also aiming for different parts of the market as well as the same parts. We have Honda, Toyota, etc. ARRI will definitely be a key player in the digital cine camera market.
 
I guess if Arri really goes the way of fully integrated postworkflow from start
they will get a huge push.

I like modularity but thinking of the everyday shoot where certain things have to work...and make a working comfortable...they definitly will get market share.

A RED without Elementtechnica gear is lets say less workable (imho)
 
Eliminate this bit of ignorance on my part: What do you mean "open format" RAW?

Is that just something like Linux for computers?

Stephen
 
I don't think it's just ARRI. You can be sure Sony, Canon, JVC, Panasonic, etc., all have plans. You just have to commend RED for coming out of nowhere and making a ground breaking camera at a ground breaking price. You really need passion to pull off a feat like this.

OT. Sony had a show In Accra a few months ago. Their reps didn't even know how to transfer footage from the EX1 on to my laptop for me to try out. They were really ignorant about the workflow. Maybe they just sent the wrong guys or maybe that's where passion comes in.
 
David Mullen ASC said:
ARRI really doesn't have to make a $20,000 4K RAW camera, for example, just as they don't have to make a 35mm movie camera that costs only $20,000. If they can demonstrate some advantages for buying something more expensive, either because of features or quality of workmanship or ruggedness or advantageous workflow, they will find buyers. Afterall, we have Sony, Panasonic, Canon, etc. all competing with each other but also aiming for different parts of the market as well as the same parts. We have Honda, Toyota, etc. ARRI will definitely be a key player in the digital cine camera market.
Click to expand...

Not to put too fine a point on it, but this sort of "Our existing customers have deep pockets and they trust us, so we don't have to make our stuff cheaper" thinking is what has lead to Red having... what, maybe 70-80% market share in the digital cinematography camera market after about 12 months? (How many D20, Genesis or F23 units are actually out there?)

While this works fine in the short run (I'm sure Arri isn't losing all that many customers to Red at the moment; Red's market share comes mostly from enlarging the market), it's lethal in the long run. Because guess what equipment the next generation of up-and-coming future pros use? Yeah. The cheap and widely accessible stuff.

To some extent this is what caused Avid's downfall. I'm 26. Guess what I learned editing on? Final Cut Pro. Guess why? Because I had access to it in my early 20s, without being in the video industry. It was cheap and it ran on commodity hardware.

I started a production company out of college. Guess what editing software we use?

I am not an isolated case.

If Arri really wants to head this off, even a credible $20K digital cinema camera offering isn't going to do it. You know how many film students with well-off parents are going to own a 2/3" Scarlet in a couple of years? Hell, film programs will probably buy them -- it's sure a lot cheaper and more sensible than having students shoot 16mm film, and they can even reuse some of their 16mm camera accessories. The implications five or ten years down the line will be substantial.
 
Chris Kenny said:
Not to put too fine a point on it, but this sort of "Our existing customers have deep pockets and they trust us, so we don't have to make our stuff cheaper" thinking is what has lead to Red having... what, maybe 70-80% market share in the digital cinematography camera market after about 12 months? (How many D20, Genesis or F23 units are actually out there?)

While this works fine in the short run (I'm sure Arri isn't losing all that many customers to Red at the moment; Red's market share comes mostly from enlarging the market), it's lethal in the long run. Because guess what equipment the next generation of up-and-coming future pros use? Yeah. The cheap and widely accessible stuff.

To some extent this is what caused Avid's downfall. I'm 26. Guess what I learned editing on? Final Cut Pro. Guess why? Because I had access to it in my early 20s, without being in the video industry. It was cheap and it ran on commodity hardware.

I started a production company out of college. Guess what editing software we use?

I am not an isolated case.

If Arri really wants to head this off, even a credible $20K digital cinema camera offering isn't going to do it. You know how many film students with well-off parents are going to own a 2/3" Scarlet in a couple of years? Hell, film programs will probably buy them -- it's sure a lot cheaper and more sensible than having students shoot 16mm film, and they can even reuse some of their 16mm camera accessories. The implications five or ten years down the line will be substantial.
Click to expand...


Chris, only scratch can do a full debayer from redcode raw files...as 3rd party. apple is doing a half debayer...
arri doesnt aim to the scarletguys market ....they didnt market them as the hvx200 were around....or now with the EX1.

thinking of 15 months of beta/buggy/surfer rescue/monkey coming/clipfinding workaround software...i guess people who need the tools THEY WANT (This indicates that there is a choice to choose from) arri would have a great chance to get market share.

And if you are honest...to use the Redsystem without workarounds of any kind was RED+Scratch (still is)....that is 75 000 USD.+30 000 USD for a Camera and a Datamanagertool with mediocre(imho) CC Tools.

So lets say this rumour is true....you would save against RED comparing the full pipeline without workarounds.

RED will gain a much greater reputation once the postworkflow is fully integrated.
 
What's the image quality though? Price is important too though. $40k for 4k sounds a lot more than $17.5k for 4k which is red right? Mention of global shutter is strange though as don't arri use a mirror for their optical viewfinder? If you have a mirror shutter, you don't need a global shutter right? From what I'm reading about sensors, it's a trade off if you have a global shutter. Will it be cmos or ccd? Will it be compressed raw that I can record on a CF card, or those big files I need lots of hard drives for? Is this a one person camera or a film crew camera? Lots of questions and no answers. That's rumors for you!
 
Don't right off Arri, or any of the other competition.
Red is a great camera,and it's changed the face of independent production forever,but Jim and crew are going to have to keep on their toes to keep ahead of the game.
Tom.
 
Whatever,

but i would say that companies like ARRI or PANAVISION will still owe the market

for making the main stream of feature films until the companies like a RED will take them over.

But the companies like a RED should finally realised that the main weapon is not the size of the sensor in the camera

and also its resolution, fps speed and whatever in that way.

Simply it is called the set of FAST LENSES (aspherical and anamorphic) that would make you the next king on the market.

In a year or two everybody would have a powerful sensor but all that depends on the second stage in overall acquisition

and there is simply the market for the (FAST) LENSES.

So if you are looking at the future of that thing you should INVEST in a development of fast spherical or anamorphic

lenses and then you could owe the market anyway even if it is a FILM or a DIGITAL acquisition under the question.

Cameras are not owing the market.

Its about overall system and workflow.

If you are missing something or you are in a "scissors" or your partners and also if you are counting only on one thing then

you are the looser of the all game very soon.
 
Cüneyt Kaya said:
ok this is a rumour i heard today.....source...like every source a rumour comes from....friend talking with someone inside that company.
so i posted it in the offtopic section.


the rumour is following.

arri wants to release a 4k cam for 40k
and a smaller version for 20k

global shutter

and their biggest selling point should become: Open Source Coding...RAW

And packages with Arricam/Support/Assec. will be possibly offered.

--------

my notes on this rumour:

i dont think that an arricam itself has a chance against a red comparing price/perfomance....
but the goal to be integrated immediatly in the postworkflow sounds pretty seductive.

i know some producers who would say: arri can the same? no stress in post? more expensive, but still cheaper than 35mm? lets do it....we will save it in Post.

package deal with lenses.....would rock.
But i thought the Dalsa Arri deal is still not finished?


And i dont think that Arri can just buy sensortechnology which can compare to RED.....but who knows.
Click to expand...

I know that Arri certainly has appetite for Red market and is considering Red's invitation for competition. Let the games begin :)
 
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