Welcome to our community

Be a part of something great, join today!

Log in
  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Rumour: Arri wants to strike back

Chris Kenny said:
Red workflow is scalable. You can create a 2K DPX deliverable for a feature film using less than $10K worth of hardware and software, or you can spend $100K+ to have a high-end post house take your footage though something more like a traditional DI workflow.
Click to expand...

yeah....
pretty good "workaround" workflow for less then 10k...and pretty heavy unnesserrary workflow on the counterpart...
i know both routes chris.

But here everybody has his own opinion.
 
mail4joeg said:
I have been wary of the Red One because of the 12 bit / compressed, dynamic range thing, and even the rolling shutter.
Click to expand...

Fair enough, but in the meantime there are people getting films made using their understanding of how Redcode currently works in the Red One and working within the parameters. There will always be something better around the corner, but it's those who make use of the tools available now that tend to advance their skill sets and foster their creativity. I've seen some footage shot in 2K, 2:1 that looks nicer than some things I have seen shot in 4K. Certainly improvements in technology, specifically with the new Red lineup, give us more options, more ways to achieve higher quality imagery, but I see no reason to be weary of Red One.
 
Justin Kirchhoff said:
4K for $40k?

How about 28K for $53k. That sounds more reasonable.
Click to expand...

justin....i am interested in the narrative cinema/commercial market.

even if a 28k camera exists (will exist)....thinking of On set work...pulling focus...postworkflow...vfx...and most important...distribution channels....4k can be the standard at theatres in a couple of years....lets say 3 years.

so because i am interested in using PL Cine Glass or maximum VistaVison Glass...i see no need for a 28k camera in narrative/commercial work...

photography is cool...but i love moving images.

---even when the arri cam would be the best available 4-5k camera with all the hardware quality and good postworkflow solutions i wouldnt invest in it...

i always knew that the whole 4k+ thing will be like computers....
the time to get a return of investment will be reduced to 6 months.

and beside all the greatness that is floating around from red and arri....i am responsible to add the tools.....which offer the best mix of price/perfomance (not only aquisition....post too) and realworld workability, to my inventory.

so as much as i love RED...i am looking for the whole package that is good....which today is RED.
 
Arri is developing digital cinema product.

Aaton is developing digital cinema product.

Sony is devloping digital cinema product.

Panasonic is developing digital cinema product.

My dog is developing digital cinema product. A little slower R&D.


I know a few thing about a few things, and there's a great many things I don't know, but let me ask a simple question:

If someone offered you the equivalent of a RED One that had a true optical viewfinder and uncompressed RAW recording for twice the price, would you be interested? I can tell you I sure would, and so would just about every DP I know.
 
Mitch Gross said:
Arri is developing digital cinema product.

Aaton is developing digital cinema product.

Sony is devloping digital cinema product.

Panasonic is developing digital cinema product.

My dog is developing digital cinema product. A little slower R&D.


I know a few thing about a few things, and there's a great many things I don't know, but let me ask a simple question:

If someone offered you the equivalent of a RED One that had a true optical viewfinder and uncompressed RAW recording for twice the price, would you be interested? I can tell you I sure would, and so would just about every DP I know.
Click to expand...
Maybe, but it would depend on how that RAW material was recorded. It has to be in a very portable medium for the kinds of shooting I do. Personally, I just need a 1080P viewfinder that is accurate, doesn't strobe, and sharp as heck. That would also suit most of my needs. But I can see others needing more and perhaps this solution you mention would be ideal for them and the price won't be an issue.
 
Mitch Gross said:
If someone offered you the equivalent of a RED One that had a true optical viewfinder and uncompressed RAW recording for twice the price, would you be interested?
Click to expand...

As much as I loved my dear RED One, the one thing I could never get past was the EVF. No matter how superior it's supposed to be. To me, nothing beats an optical viewfinder. So, the answer to your question would be "yes"... that is, *if* I had the money.

Can I meet your dog, Mitch?

:biggrin:
 
A Phantom CineMag holds about 40 minutes worth of uncompressed RAW material if it were shot at the RED One's top resolution and the bit rate was upped from 12 to 14-bit. That CineMag is flash-based memory not a hard drive, and can accept that data at a very high data rate (it would take that uncompressed 4K material in at about 100fps -- yeah and it's UNCOMPRESSED!). And it is just a little bit bigger than the RED Drive. So it is certainly technically possible, and if one were to lower these specs so that it did not have to perform at such high data rates then the price could drop dramatically as well. All these things are possible today.

I actually don't type, but instead dictate as I prepare gormet meals for my dog. She's the one doing the typing. All the posts about setting backfocus I let her write herself. If only she would stop hogging the TV remote...
 
Mitch Gross said:
If someone offered you the equivalent of a RED One that had a true optical viewfinder and uncompressed RAW recording for twice the price, would you be interested? I can tell you I sure would, and so would just about every DP I know.
Click to expand...

Biased sample. Would I be interested in shooting with that camera on someone else's dime, which is how most freelance DPs work? Sure, probably. (Especially if I didn't have to physically operate -- an OVF does have certain costs in terms of size and weight.)

Would I buy such a camera for my small production company? No. Would I recommend such a camera over the Red One to someone shooting a low-budget (say sub-$250K) feature? Probably not.

Without compressed capture, a 4K camera, regardless of its own price tag, becomes a very expensive tool to use. Which raises the question of why it's worth bothering to try to make a 4K uncompressed camera inexpensive in the first place, if you have to have lots of money to do anything useful with it anyway.

I have to say it really baffles me that so many people are hung up on the compression issue. If ever there was a game of diminishing returns, this is it. Even if you could get uncompressed at only twice the price (which you can't, even remotely, especially if you include an uncompressed post workflow), you'd still be spending twice as much for an image quality difference that would be imperceptible to most viewers, with most material, under most viewing conditions. There's almost certainly some better place to spend that money.
 
Mitch Gross said:
My dog is developing digital cinema product. A little slower R&D.
I know a few thing about a few things, and there's a great many things I don't know, but let me ask a simple question:

If someone offered you the equivalent of a RED One that had a true optical viewfinder and uncompressed RAW recording for twice the price, would you be interested? I can tell you I sure would, and so would just about every DP I know.
Click to expand...

I would not.

I'd like an optical viewfinder for sure ... but there are a lot more considerations.

RED can offer uncompressed anytime they want. In fact, the boys from Codex showed me a unit with a connector they installed specifically for RED's RAW PORT. RED cancelled the RAW PORT because the demand was not there - not because they couldn't make it. When the workflow is considered - uncompressed 4K in long form is VERY inefficient. That might change, sure. And has anyone heard RED say that you can't get uncompressed out of the EPIC?? I didn't hear that Mitch ... did you??
 
Mitch Gross said:
If someone offered you the equivalent of a RED One that had a true optical viewfinder and uncompressed RAW recording for twice the price, would you be interested? I can tell you I sure would, and so would just about every DP I know.
Click to expand...

Personally, I'm not interested in any of those features. Acually, I would pay more for a camera without optical VF. Uncompressed RAW is a total and utter waste. I'll take higher frame rate and/or resolution every time over uncompressed.

There are many other features I would consider highly desirable that Red One does not have currently. Some very simple, such as remote power on/off. Another would be multiple GPIO sockets (or pins) and ability to assign just about any function to those inputs, such as 1:1, etc...
2.40:1 aspect ratio covering 4.5k ... I hear it is coming in future builds. Small size is very important to me. I could not care less about shoulder ergonomics.

Every user is different and many options will make it easier to meet more diverse requirements.
 
Ultimately the price point of RED is astounding. For a comparable product, I have a difficult time imagining another company matching this price point. To some it may not matter, but to independent productions that really need that money for other areas, RED will really hit home.
 
Optical viewfinders on DSLRs don't accurately portray depth of field. They make the depth of field look deeper than it really is.
 
Call me old fashioned but I am disgusted by the lack of LOYALTY.

When Red bends over backwards to do its customers right, I believe they deserve a little bit more back.

No humble opinions here Boys & Girls =Ö= Thats my point of view ... Period.




DogDay.
 
I have a feeling that Fujifilm might turn out to be a keyplayer beeing able to bring home the stakes. They already have all the patents in place for a camera, which leads everyone gushing. The superCCD sensor design solves the greatest problem people in the industry are havng with Red1, namely dynamic range. The claims made by Red about the DR, are often disputed by DPs feeling that they effectively only have around 7-8 stops to work with and nothing even close to the 11 stops otherwise claimed. In the industry DR and post are the reason, people stick with film. As long as RED are staying with bayer-sensor design, it seems like they are only able to increasy DR by going up to outragious resolutions, making post-production troublesome, whereas Fujifilm just need to wait until compression engines get down in price before they can use the technology from their S series to make a highly competitive camera.

but again this is all speculative... but an interesting thought anyway. Imagine an S5 pro shooting compressed raw at 24fps :sorcerer:
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top