HDSDI Output -- 1080 to an External Deck?

[TimPipher]

Is it still in the plans to activate the HD-SDI output to make 1080 recording to an external deck possible?

Some here think yes, this will be possible soon, probably with the next big feature enabling. Others say no, you won't be able to record 1080 to an external deck until 1080 recording on-board is activated -- and 1080 on-board recording seems to be of questionable value to RED's way of thinking, so it's presumably a long way off, if ever.

Is this feature (HD-SDI output to allow 1080 recording to an external deck)still in the plans, and if it is, will it be activated with an upgrade relatively soon, or in the spring or later?

To help clear this up, any information from RED would be especially appreciated.

Finally, if RED can't activate the HD-SDI feature, what do you think the chances would be of a third party figuring something out, much the same way Evertz did for the original F900's before Sony added an output?

 

[TimPipher]

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=1119

Just look at letter F there, it has Dual Link HD-SDI for 1080 Output. So I would imagine it be activated very soon (if its not already) since it's kind of pointless to even have those outputs otherwise.

Exactly -- I always thought it was part of the plan.

But then I see threads like this, in which some are saying it's not happening --at least not anytime soon.

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=5881

There are quite a few threads like this, with some people saying the output will only be for monitoring purposes, and others saying it will be for recording purposes.

I may be misreading this stuff -- I hope I am -- but I'd be grateful if RED would chirp in and clear this up.

 

[Darren Orange]

I think it is safe to say that it will most likely be there before the Olympic games start. Live switch 1080P for broadcast, if we will even be broadcasting 1080P by then. It will help for post work. Olympics on a 4K projector. Just record to RED Drives and broadcast 1080P. Then edit in post 4K to sync time code to the live broadcast time code. Or something to that extent.

 

[TimPipher]

I got through to RED on the telephone today to ask this question. Had no problems getting through to a technical person -- I appreciate the good service.

Bad news, though, at least for me. HD-SDI output recording doesn't seem to be a high priority and won't be coming anytime soon. That renders the camera almost useless for studio multicamera configurations, at least for the forseeable future.

Is it possible for a third party device to make the HD-SDI output work for recording? Or, is it possible for a camera/computer genius to figure out how to enable it?

 

[Stuart English]

1080p Output

1080p Output

A dual single link 1080p 4:2:2 output or single dual link 1080p 4:4:4 output would only naturally fall out when the camera records 2K RGB or 1080p RGB.

We still plan for RGB in future, and have some other ideas to provide some form of 1080p capability. But not available in the immediate future.

We could debate the value of recording 1080p external to the camera, but once you shoot 12 bit REDCODE RAW going back to 1080p seems such a quality let down, nobody should be encouraged to do that.

 

[TimPipher]

A dual single link 1080p 4:2:2 output or single dual link 1080p 4:4:4 output would only naturally fall out when the camera records 2K RGB or 1080p RGB.

We still plan for that in future, and we may have other options to provide this. But its not available in the immediate future.

We could have a long debate about the value of 1080p, but once you have shot RAW going back to even 1080p is such a quality let down, nobody should be encouraged to do that.

Thanks Stuart, but for a multi-camera studio configuration, or anything live, it's crucial. HD-SDI output with genlock was the reason I reserved my three REDs, and after all this, including me extolling the virtues of RED to executives at a national television network, the last thing I want to do is announce that I'm going with Panasonic. Not only would that, after all the anticipation of RED, make me sick, it would make me look like an idiot.

Do you see any solution for me by, say, February?

 

[Chris Parker]

For ANY studio situation, this setup is of incredible value. It would get RED out on many shoots if it were possible. Lower budget stuff, or time sensitive stuff that just can't invest the time and effort in REDCine processing.

A lower budget person shooting for broadcast (or DVD) would be able to run this through an AJA IO HD (which I currently have in the hopes of doing this) and digitize the day's shots directly on a hard drive. Then hand the Final Cut Pro project file to the editor along with the hard drive, and they are good to go.

Even if your master is recorded onboard at 4K.

 

[Evin Grant]

Thanks Stuart, but for a multi-camera studio configuration, or anything live, it's crucial. HD-SDI output with genlock was the reason I reserved my three REDs, and after all this, including me extolling the virtues of RED to executives at a national television network, the last thing I want to do is announce that I'm going with Panasonic. Not only would that, after all the anticipation of RED, make me sick, it would make me look like an idiot.

Do you see any solution for me by, say, February?

I think you may be out of luck my friend. Best laid plans and all:umm:

 

[Stuart English]

re 1080p outputs for live use

re 1080p outputs for live use

Thanks Stuart, but for a multi-camera studio configuration, or anything live, it's crucial. HD-SDI output with genlock was the reason I reserved my three REDs, and after all this, including me extolling the virtues of RED to executives at a national television network, the last thing I want to do is announce that I'm going with Panasonic. Not only would that, after all the anticipation of RED, make me sick, it would make me look like an idiot.

Do you see any solution for me by, say, February?

To do this (live 1080p) the RED-ONE camera needs to be recording 1080p. What else do you need though? I suspect that 1080p 4:2:2 isn't tight enough a specification to be able to say with certainty that the camera is 100% compatible with your specific application.

 

[Michael Brennan]

1080P or not 1080P

1080P or not 1080P

Tim,

RED team have been bombarded with requests for clean 1920x1080 HDSDI output since this forum opened.

If I recall correctly the response from RED was that there would definitely be HDSDI implementation soon enough. It now appears that what RED were referring too was a 720p output not 1080p output.

Read between the lines.
HDSDI was and is difficult and expensive to implement without compromises, they probably can't do it for the money but simply don't want to admit it?

Does make me wonder if the consultation with RED users a few months back where Jim canvassed opinion as to the usefulness of 2k v 1080p had a kind of foregone conclusion.

You see, by choosing in-camera 2k recording instead of 1080p perhaps there is less reason to offer a 1080p output?

RED looks like a no go area for any 1080p signal connection to HDSDI equipment.... a far cry from the multifunctional video/digital camera proclaimed in the early days.

For me this ongoing uncertainty is the most damaging and obvious flaw in an otherwise commendable process of semi public development.
However compared to typical Sony/Panasonic tactics it ony rates a 2/10 on the devious scale.


Of course RED will dominate, even without a 1080p output, perhaps until the Japanese offer +4K with the Bells AND Whistles.

I'm not cancelling my orders...


Mike Brennan

 

[David Newman]

Clearly the camera has the hardware resources to develop RAW to 720p HDMI, I'm supprised it couldn't do the same for 1080p. If the camera is truely tapped out, I have suggested a solution in the past that would allow 4K RAW to recorded to any dual link HDSDI device that can handle RGBA (Sony's SRW1 will do fine), yet consume fewer hardware resources in the camera. Convert RAW to RGB is costly for your FPGA real estate, yet directly sending the same data you send to compressor to the dual link output set to 2048x1080 will work well. 4096x2048 1 pixel per channel is identical to 2048x1080 at 4 pixels per channel. Instead of RGBA, you are sending RGBG from the bayer source -- it would even preview correctly, although post development will still be required, but now you can have redundant 4K recording using off the shelf dual link devices. Only down side, fewer users will need the RAW port.

 

[mezmo]

Raw to RGB,
Isn't the solution to convert Raw to RGB in a seperate
purpose built (still onboard) device so people can get
their industry compatible & much loved 1080p out
of this camera and then out to a deck or portable 1080p DDR.
I'm no tech head and have no idea if such a thing is possible.
This processor could be seperate to the camera with it's own
power supply/connections and cooling system and not tax Red
in any way shape or form.
It could even be built as a split system with heavy duty cable connections
to the off board recording device or even OB van in broadcast situations.
The people that need this probably have the bucks to pay for it.
It would be worth the expense if 1080p picture quality was over and above
that derived from normal 3chip HD cameras,which seems to be the case
with Redcine post processing out to 1080p.
Mezmo

 

[Erik Bien]

As someone with 24 job titles on a 12 camera shoot, I suspect your idea of "easy" is rather different than mine ... :wacko:

 

[Blair S. Paulsen]

In RED I trust.

In RED I trust.

AFAIK Red is still tracking on support for several different outputs simultaneously live off camera for monitoring and, if it suits you, recording to an outboard device. Clean HD-SDI outs at 1080P in either single link 4:2:2 or dual link 4:4:4 have been part of the design path for months. From where I sit, just because they are not a top priority at this stage of the development, does not mean they won't be implemented once other design goals are met.

It seems logical to me that the Red Team has considered which features are most urgently needed and which are most expeditiously realized technically. I look forward to clean 1080P outputs, but; enabling the Red LCD, the Red EVF and the preview 720P outs (both HD-SDI & HDMI) to be hot at the same time is my most ardent request with sound right behind. Let's not forget just how much the tiny Red Team has accomplished in less than 2 years!

 

[Mark L. Pederson]

To do this (live 1080p) the RED-ONE camera needs to be recording 1080p.

Could you record in 4K and output 1080p live if you excluded scaled signals to LCd & EVF??

If that is the case, one could monitor with an onboard tapped off of the same 1080p output and you would if fact be recording 4K at the same time.

I am sure lots of folks would gladly take that option as oppose to no 1080p output while shooting 4K.

 

[Blair S. Paulsen]

Light 'em all up please

Light 'em all up please

IF, in fact, clean 1080P outs fall victim to FPGA limitations, any chance of a clean 720P output? It would still allow traditional style video assist, fail-safe back up recordings and straight to editorial workflows. Don't get me wrong, I still yearn for 1080 live but what I really need is all the taps hot at the same time, even if they are "only" 720.

 

[Stuart English]

Clean feed 720p ?

Clean feed 720p ?

With on-camera playback you already have that feature. But in record, the video output includes frame guides, time code, clip name and SurroundView.

RED looks like a no go area for any 1080p signal connection to HDSDI equipment.... a far cry from the multifunctional video/digital camera proclaimed in the early days.

Err.. when did we ever say that? What we have said is it falls out naturally with 1080p recording, and there may be other options available ...

 

[Michael Brennan]

With on-camera playback you already have that feature. But in record, the video output includes frame guides, time code, clip name and SurroundView.




Err.. when did we ever say that? What we have said is it falls out naturally with 1080p recording, and there may be other options available ...

Sorry I don't understand which part of my post you are disagreeing with
Are you saying RED have never said or implied that there will be a clean 1080p output?


Mike Brennan

 

[Damien Molineaux]

With on-camera playback you already have that feature. But in record, the video output includes frame guides, time code, clip name and SurroundView.

Err.. when did we ever say that? What we have said is it falls out naturally with 1080p recording, and there may be other options available ...

Hi Stuart,
thanks for your input. Forgive me but I don't understand the expression "falls out". Do you mean the 1080p HD-SDI output will become available when 1080p recording becomes a reality, or that 1080p recording will not happen and therefore 1080p HD-SDI out will not happen either?

I don't really care about onboard 1080p recording (although I understand it may be important for others), but I do think live 1080p (or i) HD-SDI output is VERY important. If that is not going to be an option, it won't be a deal breaker for me, (although I wouldn't be surprised it may be for some), however it will limit what I can (plan) to do with my Red One, and I want (need) to know.

If, and I hope it is, 1080p HD-SDI output is maintained, can you give us an idea of an approximate timeframe, given everything is subject to change...

Cheers,
Damien

 

[Rocco Schult]

To do this (live 1080p) the RED-ONE camera needs to be recording 1080p. What else do you need though? I suspect that 1080p 4:2:2 isn't tight enough a specification to be able to say with certainty that the camera is 100% compatible with your specific application.

Did not follow this whole way through, but to me it seems genlock would be needed.