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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Is the RED One ever going to be upgraded to the Monstro chip?

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Hi,

I would understand that to mean Red One will be discontinued with monstro upgrades buy buying either Scarlet or Epic.

Stephen

Jason Ing said:
I think things were said in context. Intentions were based on future "possibilities" and not written in stone.

Jim is an honorable man of his word, but it would be unfair to hold someone to his word if that context changed. And it did.

The following is the latest from Jim. One particular sentence is of interest to this thread:

Beyond the new Mysterium-X sensor option we will continue to offer firmware upgrades, service and parts for the RED ONE.

How do you interpret this? "Beyond" doesn't say anything about a monstro sensor. And the rest makes it appear that the path to monstro is through scarlett and epic. I might be wrong. Just my take on things.



What we hadn't imagined back then was a way to make "Obsolescence Obsolete" a much more broad concept. With Scarlet and Epic... it means being able to upgrade EVERYTHING as technology advances. Every component, on an individual level, can be upgraded and improved. The RED ONE is a modular system that can be upgraded. Scarlet and EPIC are completely modular and upgradeable in every way.

So what happens to the RED ONE owner with the release of Scarlet and EPIC? What about our promise? Since we have found a way to make Scarlet and EPIC upgradeable and interchangeable in every way, we decided that "Obsolescence Obsolete" applies to the RED ONE camera as we envisioned it in the beginning. But it now also applies to the RED ONE owner .

A RED ONE owner has several choices.

1. A RED ONE owner can keep the RED ONE and upgrade to the Mysterium-X sensor for a TBD price... just as we promised.

2. A RED ONE owner can purchase any EPIC and trade in their RED ONE for full $17,500 value towards the purchase... just as we promised.

3. A RED ONE owner can choose to keep their RED ONE and receive a one-time credit of 12% on a Scarlet system purchase.

Once any of the above has been chosen, the serial number will be marked as "Executed". It can not be used again for #2 or #3. It can, however, always be eligible for another sensor upgrade as we release new sensor technology in the future.

A RED ONE owner also has priority on purchasing a Scarlet or EPIC. Beyond the new Mysterium-X sensor option we will continue to offer firmware upgrades, service and parts for the RED ONE. It has become the legacy of RED. We will never forget the camera and those that believed in RED with their purchase of the now famous, RED ONE.
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I know I only have a Ph.D. and all, but this is starting to tax my brain. Perhaps I should be more specific:

Is it planned that the Monstro chip will ever be placed into R1 bodies?

We KNOW that there is R1 Mysterium-X body in the works. . . but I was unsure about the Monstro>R1.

Stephen
 
The Third Man said:
More then 5.000 R1 sold worldwide till end of 2008 is a base of RED market and power.
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The Third Man said:
I do not and never would speculate in that sort of numbers or details.
Click to expand...

One of these things is not like the other.

Anyway, I think it's been made fairly clear that Monstro is not going to make it into a R1 body, hence the offer of full trade-in value to Epic.

Full R1 trade-in value on Epic=the upgrade path to Monstro sensor.
 
The RED ONE can be upgraded to Mysterium-X after EPIC S35 begins shipping. The RED ONE can also be upgraded to Monstro sometime in 2010. Both of these upgrades will cost money.

While it is our best judgment that a RED ONE owner should strongly consider upgrading to an EPIC for slightly more money than a sensor upgrade, we are not in the business of telling our customers what to do. We promised that a RED ONE would be upgradeable. It is. And the sensor upgrade program will likely last as long as the foreseeable future...

If we take a RED ONE in trade, we will likely upgrade the sensors ourselves and put them back into service, one way or another. The RED ONE will always have value and be a very useful tool, even though it's upgrades are limited to the sensors.

Jim
 
Jannard said:
The RED ONE can be upgraded to Mysterium-X after EPIC S35 begins shipping. The RED ONE can also be upgraded to Monstro sometime in 2010. Both of these upgrades will cost money.

While it is our best judgment that a RED ONE owner should strongly consider upgrading to an EPIC for slightly more money than a sensor upgrade, we are not in the business of telling our customers what to do. We promised that a RED ONE would be upgradeable. It is. And the sensor upgrade program will likely last as long as the foreseeable future...

If we take a RED ONE in trade, we will likely upgrade the sensors ourselves and put them back into service, one way or another. The RED ONE will always have value and be a very useful tool, even though it's upgrades are limited to the sensors.

Jim
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The important thing is you are offering options. No one is being left behind. As far as I'm concerned, you are upholding all of your original promises on upgradeability, as well as offering a new line of completely modular cameras. The design of Red One is much more hardlined than Scarlet or Epic, and all I ever expected was sensor upgrades. I knew the body wasn't going to change. You have delivered on your word Jim.
 
Jannard said:
The RED ONE can be upgraded to Mysterium-X after EPIC S35 begins shipping. The RED ONE can also be upgraded to Monstro sometime in 2010. Both of these upgrades will cost money.

While it is our best judgment that a RED ONE owner should strongly consider upgrading to an EPIC for slightly more money than a sensor upgrade, we are not in the business of telling our customers what to do. We promised that a RED ONE would be upgradeable. It is. And the sensor upgrade program will likely last as long as the foreseeable future...

If we take a RED ONE in trade, we will likely upgrade the sensors ourselves and put them back into service, one way or another. The RED ONE will always have value and be a very useful tool, even though it's upgrades are limited to the sensors.

Jim
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Jim,

thanks for the info.

R1 will never die.

Your best post ever on this forum.
 
Hey Jim,

After I upgrade to an Epic S35, can I upgrade to a FF35 for a fee? Or am I stuck at 5K S35 with the option to upgrade the sensor as we move along.

Jannard said:
The RED ONE can be upgraded to Mysterium-X after EPIC S35 begins shipping. The RED ONE can also be upgraded to Monstro sometime in 2010. Both of these upgrades will cost money.

While it is our best judgment that a RED ONE owner should strongly consider upgrading to an EPIC for slightly more money than a sensor upgrade, we are not in the business of telling our customers what to do. We promised that a RED ONE would be upgradeable. It is. And the sensor upgrade program will likely last as long as the foreseeable future...

If we take a RED ONE in trade, we will likely upgrade the sensors ourselves and put them back into service, one way or another. The RED ONE will always have value and be a very useful tool, even though it's upgrades are limited to the sensors.

Jim
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stevesherrick said:
neither will film...(ducking an evil stare from Stephen) :-)
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Hi Steven,

Shooting film is the first choice for many people. It still outperforms any digital sensor.

Stephen
 
Note to Jim...

Note to Jim...

Jannard said:
... The RED ONE will always have value and be a very useful tool, even though it's upgrades are limited to the sensors.

Jim
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Jim,

I know most likely you get irritated and somehow frustrated after the type of comments I am going to post here, but I need to express my opinion about your comment above:

With all due respect, your comment is exactly what I understood was the basic philosophical principle Red was pledging will never do to the Red One early adopters...

If the business plan changed because a better one was defined, great! I am a creative business person, and I will hate to see your company not being ahead of others; I believe in Red. However, this change on strategy/approach should trigger the revisiting of another decisions, such as the fact that the $17.5K credit can be used exclusively for the Epic. Otherwise, we Red One owners will never feel at ease with all the great news we got from Red last week since we will feel somewhat used; to be more direct, will feel part of an experiment. I do not like to feel that way...

I am excited about the new modularity and the endless possibilities of the new cameras, but that is exactly what we were told we will get if we got on board and believe on the Red One. For example, I think the $17.5K credit should not be exclusively limited toward an Epic.

If I can use such credit, (and really be able to use ALL the accessories I bought from RED for the other cameras), to buy the modules I feel suit better my needs, which was what I thought we will have, I will feel a real partner on this journey rather that being part of an experiment.

Anyways, I am pretty sure things will change, get adjusted, etc., but I really think that to have a customer base not feeling this way (I have read the same argument and frustration all over the cyber community) you should evaluate not just the strategy as it was done, but how you will make feel better the ones that put the $1,000 into the "scam".

Respectfully,
 
Stephen Williams said:
Hi Steven,

Shooting film is the first choice for many people. It still outperforms any digital sensor.

Stephen
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Stephen, I'm of course kidding. I have a record of defending film on this forum. Even I have to admit though, that if the new Red cameras perform as well as the specs indicate, even the diehard film people may have to take a closer look at digital.

Anyway, let's hope there's room for every format, including film and Red One.
 
Film for still photography is almost dead.

RED technology with M CMOS sensors and REDCODE is turning point that film for moving images will die in the next 5 years.

Or film as a moving images acquisition would finish soon and maybe a film for movie prints and projection would stay longer.

ARRI and Panavision as a main movie camera makers were already heavily involved their financial sources to dig up for digital technology.

DI is a standard for film post production today.

If RED would deliver what they promised with DR 13+ and all types of sensor sizes then film acquisition should look very soon for a nice place in many of worlds museums.
 
The Third Man said:
Film for still photography is almost dead.

If RED would deliver what they promised with DR 13+ and all types of sensor sizes then film acquisition should look very soon for a nice place in many of worlds museums.
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Hi,

The connection with film & cinema motion picture photography does not really work, for news & cheap TV video replaced film long ago.

That would be in Sony S35 territory, that co-exist with film today as with your RED One.

Stephen
 
In Germany and Austria they shooting a cheap TV commercial still on ARRI 35 mm because they want to make themselves Very Important Persons as a real filmmakers :) .

And as we know here that technology is not equal creativity

or your acquisition format would not make you more creative.
 
Jannard said:
While it is our best judgment that a RED ONE owner should strongly consider upgrading to an EPIC for slightly more money than a sensor upgrade, we are not in the business of telling our customers what to do. We promised that a RED ONE would be upgradeable. It is. And the sensor upgrade program will likely last as long as the foreseeable future...

If we take a RED ONE in trade, we will likely upgrade the sensors ourselves and put them back into service, one way or another. The RED ONE will always have value and be a very useful tool, even though it's upgrades are limited to the sensors.

Jim
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Well, considering the source, that's officially cleared up. Glad my understanding was wrong.

But if an Epic monstro upgrade is only "slightly" more then a Red One monstro upgrade, then that puts the Red One monstro sensor upgrade at least into 10-15k+ since an Epic monstro is 35k. (I'm quite sure Jim's idea of slightly more money and my slightly more money is drastically different). :)

So, if an upgrade did cost that much more, then, yeah, it just makes more sense to get an Epic.

But what's an interesting statement is the possibility of Red upgrading the used Red One bodies with monstro sensors. What would be the price point? More then the original 17.5k, of course, but not too close to an Epic monstro or what would be the incentive to buy upgraded Red Ones?

anyway, at least there was a clue to the cost of the Red One monstro upgrade. looks like it's epic ff35 or scarlet monstro for me.
 
The Third Man said:
And as we know here that technology is not equal creativity

or your acquisition format would not make you more creative.
Click to expand...

Hi,

It's always been the man behind the camera that counted. For the last year I was hearing how all that would change when 35mm quality was available to the masses. The same was said when DV came to the market. Sounds like the same old FUD you get from people who are frightened of new technology.

Stephen who has shot with a Red & on 35mm film in the last 7 days, looking forward to next year shooting 35mm, Scarlet & Epic.
 
Jason Ing said:
Well, considering the source, that's officially cleared up. Glad my understanding was wrong.

But if an Epic monstro upgrade is only "slightly" more then a Red One monstro upgrade, then that puts the Red One monstro sensor upgrade at least into 10-15k+ since an Epic monstro is 35k. (I'm quite sure Jim's idea of slightly more money and my slightly more money is drastically different). :)

So, if an upgrade did cost that much more, then, yeah, it just makes more sense to get an Epic.

But what's an interesting statement is the possibility of Red upgrading the used Red One bodies with monstro sensors. What would be the price point? More then the original 17.5k, of course, but not too close to an Epic monstro or what would be the incentive to buy upgraded Red Ones?

anyway, at least there was a clue to the cost of the Red One monstro upgrade. looks like it's epic ff35 or scarlet monstro for me.
Click to expand...

The equivalent upgrade from RED ONE to EPIC would be the $28K S35. Sensor upgrade for RED ONE is less than that difference.

Jim
 
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