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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Birger Lens Mount Reservations

Jarred Land said:
If I didn't know that a couple reliable 3rd parties that are currently in the process of finishing off the designs of an electronic EF mount that fits within our warranty requirements, I would probably loose sleep over this.
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Can you please explode the concept on this and give us, customers and indipendent filmakers, the possibility to choose or migrate. If you need to take time to answer this, please avoid the combination of "next" and "week" in the same phrase.
 
The Third Man said:
I have a feeling that BIRGER EF mount for RED is now officially and definitely out of RED mount options.

Of course you can do it yourself or even BIRGER can do installation of the mount for you BUT THAT VOID THE RED WARRANTY!!!

GAME OVER!!!

That is a clear by now.

Please correct me if I'm wrong!!!
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And that's a shame. Now, it sounds like someone else is gonna run with Erik's original idea, make the "RED-required" adjustments, and claim it for themselves. Isn't that what happened with the Erik's original Nikon dumb mount. Except that in that case, he got all the details right, but let it go...shame, shame, shame.
 
But Jarred why does it have to void the warranty on the whole camera? If you install Birger's mount and something goes wrong with the menu at the back of the camera why isn't that still covered under the warranty? On the other hand, if you install the mount and thereby damage the camera then of course it shouldn't be covered under warranty! Just like if you dropped the thing and broke it..
This seems to be a case of:
American Legal System - 1
Red Revolution - 0
 
Sounds like a textbook example of communication breakdown, with Erik on the losing side. What a pity, as it sounded so great in the Red/Birger press release many moons ago.

I'm sure that something has happened behind the scenes in all those months that have passed.

I do not know Eric, so my conclusions are only drawn from reading on this and other threads, but it seems a bit that Eric is a great engeneer, but not so good at communicating. Thus it seems that he has stepped on a couple of toes - unwillingly, not only at Red but also at P+S, and in the process angered some of his customers as well.

I hope that there will be a solution in the end that is good for all, and lets everyone keep his/her face.

Hope that all future finger pointing is done off forum — they cannot exactly help to improve already fragile relationships between Birger and Red.
 
jaadgy akanni said:
And that's a shame. Now, it sounds like someone else is gonna run with Erik's original idea, make the "RED-required" adjustments, and claim it for themselves. Isn't that what happened with the Erik's original Nikon dumb mount. Except that in that case, he got all the details right, but let it go...shame, shame, shame.
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If this is really what is happening then I feel there is a much bigger drama going on behind the scenes that meets the eye.

I know RED are very good in the way they deal with customers but I can't help but feeling a bit sorry for Eric.

I have followed the development of this mount from day one and the way Eric has pushed on and tackled problems has been nothing short of inspiring.

People that tested the mount at NAB came back with glowing reports and now that we are so close to this solution it seems silly to give up,

It is nice to see Jarred finally back on this forum but I can't help but feel that his comments are still a bit cryptic.

At this stage after the long wait and journey we have taken with Birger dangling a carrot in front of us about some future mount is just not going to cut it.

I expect a clear statement from RED as to why the Birger will never be endorsed (if that is really the case) before I cancel my (birger) order.

with 200+ people having ordered the mount and this being the longest thread in Reduser I would hope that this is high on the "priority list" for RED.
 
I'm going to say my thoughts on this. I think it is the customers that created a lot of this in the first place. Eric went through a process to design the mount that was never allowed to fully be tested because too many people were barking down his back and wanted the mount now. That need for the mount created waves and combined with Eric's financial investment forced him to release too early before proper testing.
We could all probably agree that business is not one of Eric's forte's. There's a few things he could have done better. However, he did design and give us the possibility of an amazing device at a great price. Not only that, Eric improved the initial design and had to face red changes in design too; something he could not have foreseen. He pushed with his product and created something stunning, not stopping until it was perfect, always a few weeks away.... (lol) The most unfair criticism Eric got from people mostly on this thread is he said "just a few weeks away" for the last 6 months. The fact is circumstances outside of his control dictated that. What didn't help in one way whatsoever was the constant attacks on him. I like many others am waiting but by forcing him with psychological pressure i believe made him release the mount prematurely. We all have been on shoots and seen this a million times. It's Murphys Law and always guarantees grief.
The biggest mistake Eric made, i believe, is releasing the recent email. I'm sure he did it out of pressure and now regrets it. I don't blame him at all. I think his gift is engineering and not communication and it takes all types to make the world go round. However, Red has a disclaimer on the red site that i gather goes not only to customers but also to all it does business with "we have the right to refuse service to any one with a bad attitude"
like i said, the customers had a part to play, all those phone calls eric got when he could have been designing. The constant demands. The constant harassment.
Sure Eric could have approached this with more tact. However, the situations that arose were outside of his hands. He deserves no criticism for that.
You can't blame red either. They have just got three blown cameras and by any guess that went on in that meeting, knowing Eric's communication style and also guessing he has a large shipment of mounts that need to be paid for, i am gathering he probably chose a method of communication that usually gets met with a brick wall.
We have to assume Erics product is really nice (mike?- is it brilliant or what?) The guy has pored his guts into this. He has treated it like a baby and always perfecting it more and more. I think no other manufacturer will do as good a job as Birger unless they copy his design and i'm not into supporting that. That would be low. That would be lower than low.
I will be getting it wether the warranty is void or not.
But i do hope Eric reads the "dummies guide to communication" and i do hope red can swallow some pride and i do hope all the winging and whining from customers ceases to exist. There are three groups who are jointly responsibly for what has evolved and only when those three groups get on the same page can we proceed for proper testing, reds approval of the new developments and lastly, shipping of the mounts.

It's that simple.
 
Jarred, can I ask a question here?

I think Im inclined to install the mount ,if you're saying the warranty is only void if you install it wrong.

Am I correct in saying that if I install it, and everything works fine. 3 months later if something goes wrong internally with my camera, Red will fix it? (assuming it isn't caused by the Birger mount).

I have an early camera and I havent really used it yet, so I am a little apprehensive that it could fall foul to some of the problems I've read about with the first cameras (i hear some of early the power boards were prone to going dead) - but I dont want to have to pay for this simply because I have installed the mount.

My second question would be to Erik. Once installed, how safe is this mount now? Has it been extensively tested in it's new configuration from the rear power port? What ARE the risks of using the Birger mount on Red? I mean, if we know what is causing the issues we can try to avoid it or at least be able to assess the risk - as it stands I've no idea what the issues are apart from rumours
 
Jarred Land said:
If I didn't know that a couple reliable 3rd parties that are currently in the process of finishing off the designs of an electronic EF mount that fits within our warranty requirements, I would probably loose sleep over this.
Click to expand...

FUD at best... There are some major steps in the process:

1. Control a lens.
2. Control any lens.
3. Dynamically control a lens.
4. Dynamically control any lens.

The first step is only 10% of the journey... there is a major difference between working on, and a working solution. We have a working solution.

So much for my long weekend away from the office...
 
I want an electronic canon mount remote BT and i'll break the warranty for that no matter
But it's better to be silent with this request or i could rush someone to launch on the market a defective item...
 
The way i see it is if you get the nikon mount from red and change the pl mount back and stuff the camera up, your going to void the warranty. It's really just the same here. What we really need is for the mount to go through more testing and ascertain exactly the problem. The warranty isn't voided totally, just if the mount or installation is at fault. Jim and Jarred have both made that clear. So what more does everyone want? I think also they are open to third party manufacturers testing at red before release...

So lets move forward and encourage Erik (sorry for the misspelling in previous posts) to do that testing and get our mounts.

I'm sure we could see them in a couple of weeks... ok... maybe a bit longer...
 
Jarred said in the ESO thread that if you install 3-rd party radio in your car and it shorts the electrical system and burns the engine compartment then you have small chance to negotiate engine warranty repair with car manufacture.

However if after installing the radio the wheels will fall off then sure you will get it fixed on warranty.

The way I understand this, RED is reserving the right to refuse warranty repair on the camera if the Birger mount will not be installed by the Birger or RED. However if problem with the camera is clearly not related to the Birger mount they will still fix it. BUT it is RED call to agree to warranty repair just so there is no stupid discussions.

So far RED was very fair in all dealing, I doubt if you have problem completely unrelated to the AUX power shutting down the camera too often or sensor chamber related problem because you contaminated it by changing the mount 5 times a week, that RED will screw you up. But unfortunately there will be no discussion about what they fix or what they will not fix.

We got the warning.
 
birgerEngineer said:
FUD at best... There are some major steps in the process:

1. Control a lens.
2. Control any lens.
3. Dynamically control a lens.
4. Dynamically control any lens.

The first step is only 10% of the journey... there is a major difference between working on, and a working solution. We have a working solution.

So much for my long weekend away from the office...
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Erik, go back on holidays.. Come back full of energy with doing the final testing on the product.
 
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