Birger Lens Mount Reservations

[Ivan Cortazar]

End of Story...

End of Story...

From Jarred:
"This is the last I am going to comment on this... I have commented, and Jim has commented, that taking apart the camera is going to void your camera warranty. End of Story."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XOdD3cXrgmE
I love how the video starts RED...

Jarred, I'm totally JOKIN!!!

Let's chill out a bit. I need some rest from this forum. I'm going to get drunk with some good spanish wine and tomorrow will be another day.

IC

 

[Mark Crabtree]

Jarred,

We are still waiting for an official Red position on the Birger. Warranty if Birger changes mount? No warranty if anyone else changes the mount? Whatever your final policy may we please have a justification as to why? Derailing this mount option is going to be a very bitter pill for many of us to swallow.

 

[donatello b]

"So we're going to assume this is the official RED position; remove the PL mount, void your warranty"

that is NOT what Red has stated ...
currently the PL mount is removed to use the Red nikon mount ....
there's the PL mount .. the PL mount screws into the adjustable collar ( ?? not sure of it's offcial name ) that you adjust back focus ... you can only remove the PL mount NOT the "adustable collar" that the PL mounts screws into ...

 

[Teague Kennedy]

That's very disappointing. I see Red's point, but this mount is HUGE. IMHO this is the greatest roadblock in the production of this camera since it was just a dream. I would send my camera to Birger, but I fear this little impasse will put a fatal wound in Erik's plans, and he will stop producing this thing.

I would be willing to wait for a re-design. This thing NEEDS to happen.

Somebody throw Birger a bone for God's sake.

 

[Thor Wixom]

It's a holiday weekend here in the States. I'm sure we'll hear from Red when everyone's back in the office.

I hope all the key people at Red are enjoying time with their "other" families.

-Thor

 

[Joe Vinson]

Of course you can do it yourself or even BIRGER can do installation of the mount for you BUT THAT VOID THE RED WARRANTY!!!

Please correct me if I'm wrong!!!

Well, you're wrong. If Birger does the installation, you haven't voided the warranty.

 

[Ken Willinger]

This takes out the IMS mount, the FD muse mount and the Birger as user installable options.

Where did you hear that it voids the warranty using the FD Muse mount. I've been searching for an official statement on that mount and can't find anything. Please direct me to it. Thanks.

 

[Chris Kenny]

People seem more angry at Red than at Birger here. Can we have a bit of a reality check? As a third-party developer, it was Birger's responsibility to keep channels open with Red. This is how it always works with this sort of vendor relationship. Erik has talked about Birger having "more than 200 customers". Let's be generous and assume this means ~300 mounts. That's still well under 10% of the cameras Red has taken orders for. Red's primary responsibility is the camera, not taking the initiative to check up on what third-party developers are doing.

Given what appears to be a complete lack of communication, I suppose we're lucky this all came to light when it did, rather than, say, after Birger had already shipped a few dozen mounts and cameras were failing left and right. That would have created a really awkward situation. Like, the sort of situation that doesn't get resolved without lawyers getting involved.

Of course, it also would have been nice if Red had some clearly written documentation for third-party vendors explaining (among other things) exactly what parts of the camera are considered interchangeable and what parts aren't. But it's frankly a little hard to fault Red too much in this instance for not having such a thing, because if communication had been better (which, as noted above, is the responsibility of the third-party vendor), this issue would have been dealt with anyway.

Finally, I feel it's rather important to note that even if the Birger mount wasn't stuck in warranty-related limbo, we still wouldn't have what we were told we'd have months ago. Birger has, whether deliberately or merely by drastically underestimating the relevant engineering challenges, strung its customers along with promises that its product would ship in a matter of weeks (or even days) for seven months now. It took them six months to just confirm many people's orders. We still have no estimate of when the focus knob system and/or Bluetooth remote (the electronic focus controls that actually make this more useful than a Nikon dumb mount) might be done. And if Birger did offer such an estimate now (again, even assuming no warranty issues) would you feel comfortable planning around it?

We really wanted Birger's project to succeed. Back in December of last year, when the Birger mount was supposed to ship in a couple of weeks, I made a post on Indie4K which concluded that "EOS lenses with the Birger mount are shaping up to be the indie option of choice for Red". And we hung in there for quite a while, despite the fact that it was costing us money (for lens rentals) and that we weren't using our camera for our own projects as much as we would have been if we'd had our own glass. I don't think we were the only ones experiencing such inconvenience and expense.

Finally, a couple of weeks ago, when Erik posted the pictures of FedEx boxes (implying mounts would really ship this time), and then shortly thereafter explained the new electrical problem would cause yet another delay, we gave up and ordered a Red 18-50mm lens, and four days later we could actually shoot with our camera without renting glass. We weren't sure it was the right thing to do, because Birger was still saying they'd be shipping very soon... but then again they'd been saying that for half a year already. When these warranty issues surfaced, though, and when another week passed with no information about the focus knob, etc. we knew we'd made the right choice.

From our perspective, the only thing Birger has ever actually handled at the standard I would expect was promptly canceling our order when requested.

I still hope Birger's product eventually succeeds -- I still believe that the ability to use EF lenses (with electronic focus controls) is a very compelling idea for the do-it-yourself indie crowd.

But we couldn't wait anymore. And if someone just getting their camera asked me whether they should wait, I'd probably advise them not to as well. Seriously. Don't sit there staring at a $25K paperweight. If you can afford the Red 18-50 lens, buy one. It's not high-end Zeiss glass, but it's sharp, it's lightweight, and it'll put a nice image on your sensor. If you can't afford that, get a Nikon dumb mount. Maybe you'll be able to swap it out for Birger's Nikon smart mount in a few months. But just get out there and start using your camera!

 

[Joe Vinson]

Where did you hear that it voids the warranty using the FD Muse mount. I've been searching for an official statement on that mount and can't find anything. Please direct me to it. Thanks.

Here. Jarred sez:

dont get too excited.. the Muse mount kills the camera warranty just as fast as the current Birger one does

 

[Joe Vinson]

Excellent post by the way, Chris.

 

[Jarred Land]

My biggest struggle with all this is because I know it hurts the customer the most.

If I didn't know that a couple reliable 3rd parties that are currently in the process of finishing off the designs of an electronic EF mount that fits within our warranty requirements, I would probably loose sleep over this.

And just to be clear.. there is no official agreement with Birger yet. The deal is not worked out, so if you are hearing other words, you have bad information. As of right now, the Birger mount still voids the warranty.

 

[Jarred Land]

oops sorry Joelnet and Jason, I accidently killed your posts when i went to correct the EF mount typo in my post

 

[Rami Mustakim]

Jarred I know you guys at Red want the best for your customers.
And I can't stop beeing amazed by all the things I read each day on this forum about what you do to solve problems and always find solutions to make the Red One this fantastic tool I can't stop talking about :biggrin:
Just can't wait to have mine...
But even if we know you guys want to do the best choices for your customers, please don't forget to communicate.
People here want to hear from you about this issue.
So... Just to say it's good to have you back on this thread.

 

[Thor Wixom]

Hey, Jarred,

It's nice to see you on this thread.

I know it's been tough on you (as it has everyone).

It's just nice to know you're here, and at least monitoring our thoughts on the issues.

-Thor

 

[M Hsu]

If I didn't know that a couple reliable 3rd parties that are currently in the process of finishing off the designs of an electronic EF mount that fits within our warranty requirements, I would probably loose sleep over this.

I would love to know more about that. I'd sure hate to sell all my canon glass and then find out there was actually a RED endorseable solution coming. Thanks for the info Jarred, that's very good to know.

 

[Mark B.]

If I didn't know that a couple reliable 3rd parties that are currently in the process of finishing off the designs of an electronic EF mount that fits within our warranty requirements, I would probably loose sleep over this.

If there are other companies coming to market with similar products, they really should have made themselves known before now.

 

[Sanjin Jukic]

Well, you're wrong. If Birger does the installation, you haven't voided the warranty.

I don't know who is wrong here

but for sure I do know who is right:

My biggest struggle with all this is because I know it hurts the customer the most.

If I didn't know that a couple reliable 3rd parties that are currently in the process of finishing off the designs of an electronic EF mount that fits within our warranty requirements, I would probably loose sleep over this.

And just to be clear.. there is no official agreement with Birger yet. The deal is not worked out, so if you are hearing other words, you have bad information. As of right now, the Birger mount still voids the warranty.

 

[Lauri Kettunen]

Jarred, thanks for chiming in into this Redusernet's giant thread.

Reading Mike's response tells alot. Evidently, he has chosen every single word extremely carefully in order to explain the urgent need for the EF-mount while trying simultaneously to maintain good relations with Red.

The common wisdom is to understand there are different views on issues, but that did not imply everybody did not respect each other.

I'd sure hate to sell all my canon glass and then find out there was actually a RED endorseable solution coming.

In addition to that I needed the mount already for some time now, this is precisely one of my headaches too.

I second Mike's comment that we needed some sort of resolution NOW. Whether it is the Birger mount or another one from some other company, still we needed URGENTLY more light into the situation.

 

[David Wilson]

Many many thanks Jarred for being part of this important conversation. We, like many, have only been able to consider the purchase of our RED based on the knowledge that we would be able to use our existing affordable Canon lenses.

For us, the Birger Mount has been and continues to be an absolutely essential component of the RED revolution.

 

[Ivan Cortazar]

Jarred thank you

Jarred thank you

Jaarrrred thank you!!! And Welcome!

I knew my Spanish wine technique would work.

From muffiny:
"Let's chill out a bit. I need some rest from this forum. I'm going to get drunk with some good spanish wine and tomorrow will be another day.
IC

My biggest struggle with all this is because I know it hurts the customer the most.

PS: Jarred you're the best... and we know you care about your costumers. that's why we are a pain in the a#$!. :bleh: