Birger Lens Mount Reservations

[Meryem Ersoz]

I think his point was that the Birger is going to be so revolutionary that it kills off the value of PL mounts...I doubt that will be the case, but it will actually be amazing to have a broader range of relatively inexpensive lens choices, with complete coverage from 14mm - 600mm (even 800mm if the Sigma knockoff lenses work) in fast lenses.

Since it appears that the mount is not that simple to swap out (yet), I doubt that PL will go the way of the dodo or suddenly lose half its value...and you'll be able to sell used PL lenses for less of a hit than you might take on the Nikon/cheap lens combo. You have to put up a lot more initially, but you'll get most of it back.

 

[chuck colburn]

http://cgi.ebay.com/Canon-EF-800mm-...yZ106844QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

Or even an 800mm. lol

Here's an older one in PL mount

http://cgi.ebay.com/800MM-CANON-ARR...oryZ4691QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

 

[Thor Wixom]

Hey Thor,
then there are those of us actually working for the past 3-6 months not waiting for something that may or not appear. I guess it will appear, but in the mean time, been working and making lens payments and then some.

Good point, Baja. I was just trying to help Lotar1 feel a little better about the situation. While your point is valid, my other point is valid, too. I will most likely lose money on the 18-50 itself, but it has helped me to get rentals I wouldn't otherwise have had, which has helped me make money on my other equipment.

But it all goes back to what Lotar1 said about being frustrated with the Birger process. I feel his (and other's) pain.

I can't afford right now to purchase the Birger and the corresponding Canon lenses, and keep the Red 18-50, so I will have to sell it at a loss.

I think the resell value of the Red 18-50 will stabilize around $3000 or so. If I wait longer to sell it, I will be able to recoup and make money on it. But the Birger is so sexy. So I will sell it soon and take a loss, and go happily into Canon land.

I'm glad I've had the 18-50, but I'm still annoyed at having to take such a loss because of the "two weeks out" sysndrome.

-Thor

 

[Lauri Kettunen]

I think his point was that the Birger is going to be so revolutionary that it kills off the value of PL mounts...I doubt that will be the case

Meryem, share the same viewt as you. However, you hint to a rather interesting point. Everybody seems to say the professional Canon and Nikon DSLR lenses are optically excellent, but the mechanics of PL-mount lenses is what makes the difference. But, if so, eventually the electric approach should take over the mechanical one. For, the history of engineering shows electronically controlled mechanics is way more economical than high precision mechanics. CD and DVD-players or car engines are good examples of this. So, who knows, perhaps at some point in the future a Birger kind of approach will become unbeatable.

 

[Jason Ing]

But the Birger is so sexy.
-Thor

Erik's engaged, Thor.

 

[Martin Weiss]

Erik's engaged, Thor.

Post of the day!

 

[Meryem Ersoz]

I think the resell value of the Red 18-50 will stabilize around $3000 or so.

I'm betting if you have treated it reasonably well, you could sell it for $5800-6000. Most lenses hold their value, and demand for PL lenses is currently exceeding supply. Plus, many RED owners-to-be are already stretching simply to afford basic camera packages, so shaving off a few hundred here and there on used accessories begins to add up very quickly.

You can't usually get used Canon and Nikon lenses in good shape for less than half their value unless they are out of print or 20 year old beat-up lenses. RED lenses won't devalue faster than these, not with the screaming demand for PL lenses that RED is creating.

It will be quite interesting to see how future developments shake out in the electrical vs. mechanical evolution of lenses. I'm rather enjoying the feel and control of RED's mechanical lenses for now, even though the economies and efficiencies of electrical lenses are indisputable. Of course, until this mount really ships and becomes widely available -- and torture tested in the field! -- the discussion remains academic.

 

[Joel Kaye]

I'm betting if you have treated it reasonably well, you could sell it for $5800-6000.

I think the problem is that particular lens doesn't have the greatest mechanics and breathes a fair bit. It may devalue more than a $20K pl lens that is excellent.

I think people are going to either toss down big money and go for the best lenses or they are going to go SLR style. The RED 18-50mm is in the middle. For that kind of money you've got a whole kit of great SLR glass and a Birger.

I'm a believer that modern lenses designed for CMOS sensors and high resolution still cameras will perform very well on RED. Maybe the best. If image stabilzation works on RED (very big if) the Birger system could become very hot.

Hollywood people serving experienced AC's will stay PL Mount. It's all the indie guys training new people with their own projects that will break all the rules. Trading film for RED was the first rule they broke... SLR glass will be the next one.

 

[Meryem Ersoz]

It's still just hard to believe that the same market that makes my $800 Angeniuex 25-250mm f3.9 overnight worth $1500 is going to chop the price of a nearly new RED 18-50mm f2.9 in half.

The dumb Nikon mount has been out for awhile now, after an unexpectedly long lag time between the promise and its production, in which I'm sure some self-defense 18-50mm purchases happened. It's not as if we have seen a bunch of RED lenses dumped as a result. We have seen one or two advertised and trading hands, but that's normal turnover.

I would bet that 3 months after the Birger is released, (assuming this happens within the next two months), I could still unload an 18-50mm for $5800-$6000...there's too much pent-up demand for this camera and its accessories through December for it to be otherwise. If anything, the release of the 18-85mm will be what dislocates the price of the RED 18-50mm, more so than the Birger.

But there may be market inefficiencies that I'm not understanding. The Birger may dislocate demand for the 18-50mm more than I realize. Time will tell, everything else is just speculation.

I actually think the macro function on the 18-50mm is quite good,-- one of the under-rated qualities of this lens. Very sharp and pretty, smooth bokeh. People who slag this lens should try shooting more anthills and butterflies before dismissing it.

 

[Jay A. Kelley]

I think there's a loooonngg way to go before the Birger can really affect the sales of other lenses.

I had a Birger on order but cancelled it due to my inability to hold that much money for so long. I've decided to wait and watch for now. Once all the field bugs are worked out of the system, I may return. But I seriously doubt we'll have any trouble, Eriks a good guy

Jay

 

[Thor Wixom]

I'm betting if you have treated it reasonably well, you could sell it for $5800-6000. Most lenses hold their value, and demand for PL lenses is currently exceeding supply. Plus, many RED owners-to-be are already stretching simply to afford basic camera packages, so shaving off a few hundred here and there on used accessories begins to add up very quickly.

You can't usually get used Canon and Nikon lenses in good shape for less than half their value unless they are out of print or 20 year old beat-up lenses. RED lenses won't devalue faster than these, not with the screaming demand for PL lenses that RED is creating.

It will be quite interesting to see how future developments shake out in the electrical vs. mechanical evolution of lenses. I'm rather enjoying the feel and control of RED's mechanical lenses for now, even though the economies and efficiencies of electrical lenses are indisputable. Of course, until this mount really ships and becomes widely available -- and torture tested in the field! -- the discussion remains academic.

The Red 18-50 is already in the mid $5k range:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&item=260229880734

I think this trend will continue. I see no reason for it to stop, especially since the Red 18-50 does not have the pedigree of most PL mount lenses. Most people believe it's a converted still lens, probably a Sigma. I happen to agree. Not mention the 18-85 will soon be available.

Who would rather spend $5k or even $4k on a used Red 18-50 rather than quality Canon or Nikon glass for their Birger? I wouldn't have spent the $6500 originally, but I knew better than to trust the "two weeks out" mantra.

Meryem, I hope you're right. I really do. I'd love to get as much as I can for the 18-50 when I sell it.

-Thor

 

[Joel Kaye]

It's not as if we have seen a bunch of RED lenses dumped as a result.

I don't think "dumping of lenses" is likely. I'm not sure how many 18-50's sold in the first place. And how many is RED selling NOW? I bet they aren't flying off the shelf with every new camera.

I know a lot of people that passed on it in favor of other lenses. I know a lot of people waited on getting their RED until a SLR solution was in place. And still other people have been waiting on Birger to get their RED.

Thor pointed to an eBay auction that put the 18-50 at $5500 in April. It's not like the value has gone up $500 in the past 3 months.

 

[Chris Kenny]

Who would rather spend $5k or even $4k on a used Red 18-50 rather than quality Canon or Nikon glass for their Birger?

Someone who needs to keep their camera PL-mount because it sometimes needs to be used with other PL-mount lenses (on rentals, etc.), but who can't afford to own higher-end PL-mount lenses. We're picking up a Red 18-50mm. We were pretty excited about the Birger mount, and were holding out for it, but the latest round of delays (and uncertainty about when the whole system -- focus knob, etc. -- will really be complete) has caused us to reevaluate our needs, and we've realized it would be somewhat detrimental to some of what we're trying to do if we converted the camera to something other than PL mount. (It has become increasingly clear over the months that mount swapping isn't really something you can do regularly.)

As for the Red 18-85 significantly reducing the value of the 18-50mm... A 35mm-format zoom with that focal length range is going to be big. Probably around 20 pounds, vs. 3 pounds for the 18-50mm. Definitely not something you'd want to have on your camera in every situation.

 

[Meryem Ersoz]

Well, the lens actually sold for $5600, not perfectly in line with my $5800 - $6000, but still close -- and substantially better than half price. It's interesting that the seller did not try here first, they might actually reach a stronger, more targeted audience than by selling on Ebay and no middleman fees. If they had more patience, I bet they could have squeezed a few more bucks out of the sale.

I still think we are looking at a lens shortage for awhile here. I'm still waiting on a 50-150mm ordered months ago. When I posted a WTB thread for lenses, all but one of the respondees requested an absolute premium for their lenses. Birger's true release in quantity remains the same enigma that it ever was. All of the new RED lenses are at least nine months - one year away from prototype. And people still want affordable REDs. Your choice for an affordable RED is either the 18-50mm or Nikon currently. With the occasional old Angeniuex lens rearing its head. The 18-50mm still represents good value, relative to what is available. And RED has resumed shipping cameras, which will add to that demand pool.

I still think that when you're ready, Thor, you won't take as big a hit as you fear -- certainly there will be some loss, but I am betting it will be less than you fear, and, meanwhile, you have been able to spend time shooting your camera.

There's going to be a sweet spot for used lenses between now and the shipping of the next round of RED lenses, and if Birger ships in quantity within the next couple of months, we will still be in it.

I don't know that I would be that quick to pull the trigger on my PL lenses, however, even if it ships. As I mentioned before, my biggest concern with the Birger mount will be getting customer service on it, if it fails -- selling these is a different animal from servicing them. Having waited 7 months for a response to a fax colors me a skeptic. And it really needs to be torture tested in the field, where all of the bugs and kinks are really most likely to manifest. It's good to have choices or back ups while this process unfolds.

 

[Joel Kaye]

Having waited 7 months for a response to a fax colors me a skeptic. And it really needs to be torture tested in the field, where all of the bugs and kinks are really most likely to manifest. It's good to have choices or back ups while this process unfolds.

I agree with all that. I never said the 18-50 would drop in value by half. If there's only one used one for sale someone will pick it up for $1k off.

I think Chris is right people are probably going to commit their cameras to being either SLR or PL. You could change from SLR to PL for a longer project pretty reasonably. But I don't think many will do it regularly. It makes sense to have the 18-50mm to shoot your own stuff and rent higher end lenses for other jobs.

BUT if you shoot with your own kit exclusively you could put together one helluva flexible kit for $10K buying all types of SLR lenses. Throwing in a Tilt Shift lens is no big deal.

 

[Joe Vinson]

At what point is a tangential discussion within a 158-page thread considered "getting off topic"?

 

[paul engstrom]

Recent developments…

Image stabilization is now working along with the dynamic focus and iris. With no knob present getting the IS switch to control this requires manually homing both the focus and iris, using the push buttons on the mount.


I also get the quote functions messed up in my responses, but someone mentioned a few posts back that they doubted IS will work.

I think Erik has already confirmed that IS does work.

p

 

[Steve Sanacore]

Recent developments…

Image stabilization is now working along with the dynamic focus and iris. With no knob present getting the IS switch to control this requires manually homing both the focus and iris, using the push buttons on the mount.


I also get the quote functions messed up in my responses, but someone mentioned a few posts back that they doubted IS will work.

I think Erik has already confirmed that IS does work.

p

I would think the only thing the IS needs to work is a power source to the lens, which the focus and iris also need. So if the focus is working, then I would imagine the IS would also work.

 

[Mark B.]

Closer and closer to the end of the month. Any positive progress at Birger? Anything to get excited about?

 

[Joe G.]

Image stablization on a lens?

Image stablization on a lens?

I thought image stabilization was a software thing that an overscanning sensor could track the image when it shook, and remove the shake. It would have a window inside of the entire sensor area to work, and gauge from frame to frame how much shift to apply up, down, left right.

How the hell does a lens do this?