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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

REDspace

REDspace v's RAW section would be nice in the manual or B16 Whitepaper as well
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Looking through EVF and LCD.. I go to RAW view and set exposure. Everything is fine, but if I move to REDSpace then the Green and Red channels are blown on the "stoplight". I would think that the RAW output would be the one to follow.. Am I correct?

Great question, but in my view as the camera exists in an RGB visual infrastructure, no.

Its best to monitor the camera using REDspace, paying attention to the visual look of the image in your monitors, backed up by the histogram and traffic lights. Note that all of these work in RGB color space - REDspace in this example, but it could also be REC709 - and especially when working in REDspace they will obviously track each other i.e what looks blown out visually is confirmed by the histogram and traffic lights.

Is this the same as what the sensor is seeing? No.

If you want to know what the sensor is seeing select view RAW. If you want to expose your camera using view RAW go right ahead, but recognize that if you expose to the right when in view RAW, when you bring the recorded data into post production your material may look blown out because a standard RAW to REC 709 or REDspace conversion adds some amount of gain to the signal.

Now you CAN use curves to avoid that, but this is more time to spend than is necessary than if you shoot the camera in REDspace directly.

So bottom line - why do we have both views? REDspace gives you the immediate WYSIWIG view that you will see in post. RAW is a reality check to see where the sensor really sits. Sometimes its useful to know when working in REDspace that when the traffic lights are blinking on, you can flip over to view RAW to see if there is headroom in the RAW recording that you can exploit in post to correct for the RGB domain visual clipping.
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Workflow Wizard
 
Brook Willard said:
It'd be nice if REDSPACE had the same ceiling as RAW. It's a bummer to think I'm clipping when I'm really not.
Click to expand...

But you are... as soon as you grade the RAW image in REDspace or REC 709, you are actually pushing the highlights up.

If you grade linear, that is a different story.

I view in REDspace and grade in REDspace and I want to know when I am at the edge. Also knowing there is a slight reserve is comforting if I need it.

Jim
 
My point is that if REDspace tells me I'm clipping at 320 ASA, I'm not actually clipping in the RAW footage. I'm guessing that I could lower my processing ASA to 200 or 250 to bring back those highlights and then just lift the rest of the image into the right neighborhood... yes?

I do generally grade linear, the starting point in SCRATCH.

I see the benefit of REDspace - both for shooting and grading - but I still wish there were two sets of stoplights: one for REDspace and one for the actual sensor.

For example, if I'm shooting at a higher ASA, it'd be nice to know that the hot spots the camera tells me are clipping at my current ASA aren't actually clipped in the RAW data.
 
REDspace v's RAW

REDspace v's RAW

I see the benefit of REDspace - both for shooting and grading - but I still wish there were two sets of stoplights: one for REDspace and one for the actual sensor.
Click to expand...

Yes, that would be nice. But if you had to choose one, then I'd choose REDspace.
 
Fair enough, I'll learn to read it just like I did REC709. I'm just always striving towards perfection. :)

Any word on REDspace LUT details/value transfer sheet?
 
This is the way I see it:

RedSpace is great for monitoring, it gives you and the client a nice, vibrant picture and no one is asking why is the picture so dark, kind of WYSIWYG with the safety of RAW. Big improvement!

I always set 200-250 ASA in RC when shot 320 ASA and the histo clipps on the right side. This happens all the time and is the downside of metadata transport.

I'm not sure with build 16 but my experience with build 15 was that all the cameramen who I worked with tended to underexpose a tad too much when using the LCD. Selecting 200 ASA for this reason made the clients monitor even more darker. The best solution was using a light meter.

Now that monitoring is more WYSIWYG I hope that the folks who are used to EVFs and exposing with them get closer to the literally "right" exposure.

Having a histo that actually displays what the sensor sees is a great tool for those like me (who not?) who want to bring the camera to it's limits.

Regarding colour correction: Fortunately apps. like Scatch and SpeedGrade use for their base linear light where no information can be lost. This does not look "vibrant" at first but that is not the point there.

One thing I did not figure out yet: Does the EVF support RAW histogramm while displaying RedSpace on 1080p out?

Hans
 
Brook Willard said:
My point is that if REDspace tells me I'm clipping at 320 ASA, I'm not actually clipping in the RAW footage. I'm guessing that I could lower my processing ASA to 200 or 250 to bring back those highlights and then just lift the rest of the image into the right neighborhood... yes?

I do generally grade linear, the starting point in SCRATCH.

I see the benefit of REDspace - both for shooting and grading - but I still wish there were two sets of stoplights: one for REDspace and one for the actual sensor.

For example, if I'm shooting at a higher ASA, it'd be nice to know that the hot spots the camera tells me are clipping at my current ASA aren't actually clipped in the RAW data.
Click to expand...

Can't you toggle between two colorspaces for verification of this very fact?
 
Hans von Sonntag said:
This is the way I see it:

One thing I did not figure out yet: Does the EVF support RAW histogramm while displaying RedSpace on 1080p out?

Hans
Click to expand...

That would be very cool. Send REDspace to director/client monitors, but the camera dept. can see RAW for max. exposure control. However, it's like Stuart and Jim say, ultimately if you're distribution is to an RBG colorspace, why shouldn't REDspace suit your needs since it appears to be the most accurate representation of what you're going to see on a broadcast monitor anyway? And you know you've got a little wiggle room because of the RAW, as Jim also says.
 
Film Ylem said:
However, it's like Stuart and Jim say, ultimately if you're distribution is to an RBG colorspace, why shouldn't REDspace suit your needs since it appears to be the most accurate representation of what you're going to see on a broadcast monitor anyway? And you know you've got a little wiggle room because of the RAW, as Jim also says.
Click to expand...

I wasn't talking about RAW monitoring in the EVF (technically you cannot view RAW, you can only view RGB), I was asking wether I can see the actual data (RAW) of the sensor on the histogram while viewing RedSpace (RGB). Probably I didn't make myself clear.

Hans
 
REDspace v's RAW

REDspace v's RAW

This is the way I see it:

RedSpace is great for monitoring, it gives you and the client a nice, vibrant picture and no one is asking why is the picture so dark, kind of WYSIWYG with the safety of RAW. Big improvement!

I always set 200-250 ASA in RC when shot 320 ASA and the histo clipps on the right side. This happens all the time and is the downside of metadata transport.
Click to expand...

I think that you will find that with Build 16 you'll use ASA 320 in Red Alert! if you used ASA 320 in the camera. i.e that issue solved..

I was asking whether I can see the actual data (RAW) of the sensor on the histogram while viewing RedSpace (RGB).
Click to expand...

No, at this time, one goes with the other.
 
Stuart English said:
I think that you will find that with Build 16 you'll use ASA 320 in Red Alert! if you used ASA 320 in the camera. i.e that issue solved..



No, at this time, one goes with the other.
Click to expand...

Thank's for the insights!

I'm in the middle of a production and cannot upgrade yet. This is very promising. I'm very curious...

Hans
 
Hello,

I tend to agree with the OP. Some documentation would be really helpful instead of having to spend a few hours plowing through Recon.

ATF
 
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