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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

For those who have used them: How does Red compare to the Genesis and CineAlta?

DavidBeier said:
I remember hearing nothing but good things about RED in the early days and, when those first tests came out, I was totally blown away. I lost touch with the whole digital scene for about a year and a half (life got in the way) but am back now and in the process of making a short film.

I had been under the impression that the RED was a monster that would get at least 11 stops of latitude and, thanks to the 4k, be able to compete with bad boys like the Genesis and CineAlta.

Recently a met a guy about the shoot a short film with the RED and who had a DP who had worked with it many times as well as the other big ones. He said that his DP had told him that the camera was largely hype. That it couldn't compare to the others and that he was pulling about 7 or 8 stops of lattitude! Hell, the HVX200 pulls 8 stops easy (noise not withstanding).

Anyway, I'm curious to get some more professional opinions here as I wanna get back in touch with what the best tool for the best job is. Thanks.
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1) Sony F23 was taken away while my RED one 768 @the HKFilmart 2008 in HKG.
2) PV 's longest partner in ASIA like our RED than Genesis to make more businesses.

That's all. A change is gonna come. Anyway it 's an reality and REDolution.

Stewart Chong
CEO
WOW Holdings
Founder
REDHKSC
 
Shawn Nelson said:
I wish Red would directly address this. Finner also doggedly insists it's about 8/9 stops, yet Red has repeatedly stated 11.
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It's as always a matter of how you see it, what your tolerance level is. I and many others feel more comfortable with seeing it as 7-9 stops (I always count on 7 stops, to be safe - so I have 3 stops up and 3 stops down). I'm not saying that you can't find more in the shadows but it doesn't look good IMO (and my bet is that Finner doesn't like it either :biggrin: ).


Fredrik Callinggard
 
supernovafilms said:
It's there, you just got to know where to look. It's not always in the obvious places and it's not a case of what you see it what you get. But it's there. Like i said already, a good stills photographer who has worked in raw for the last few years will help.
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Hmmm I did (some of) my tests together with a stills photographer funny enough :biggrin:
 
how many stops is the genesis capable of ? I've heard some people say 14, even if it has that great a dynamic range all the footage I've seen come from it makes people look like plastic , like they have no texture. I don't really like it. it feels not very organic
 
This dynamic range debate is the single most controversial issue about the camera.

I think, looking directly at the RAW print, that Finner is right. But there is frequently more data that can be pulled from clipped highlights than is immediately evident from the RAW print. I wouldn't guess how much and haven't tested it, but it is there. So RED may be right, too. RAW definitely has many hidden surprises which reveal themselves when you play with the file.

It's a tricky call, which probably requires more objective 3rd-party testing with a strict methodology.

But is there anyone out there who is truly objective about this camera???
 
Always enjoy your posts Meryem, so I'm not getting at you, but surely it's wrong to say that you can pull detail out of clipped highlights? It's always been my understanding that when highlights clip it means they have gone to pure white and therefore there is nothing but pure white there - that's what clipping means, all information is lost.
Steve
 
You can buy a Genesis. . It's the Sony F35 - same camera with different cosmetics. $250,000 for 2K camera which handles low light better than the Red.

For the $225,000 savings, I can light well enough to make the Red look great. And the Red is way cooler, and made by way cooler people, and will only get better faster than Sony ever will.
 
Way cooler people, definitely! I think those of us that use natural light (eg wildlife and doco people) are where this really causes a problem, as we can't usually move a big light in next to the tiger and a fill next to its prey!
Steve
 
Steve Phillipps said:
Always enjoy your posts Meryem, so I'm not getting at you, but surely it's wrong to say that you can pull detail out of clipped highlights? It's always been my understanding that when highlights clip it means they have gone to pure white and therefore there is nothing but pure white there - that's what clipping means, all information is lost.
Steve
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Typically one channel clips, then the other, and then all three. So even if one or two channels have clipped, the information in the intact channel(s) may be used to construct the clipped channels. The simplest being a copy-paste of intact channel data into clipped. However, more sophisticated approaches may also be tried here.
 
Steve Phillipps said:
Way cooler people, definitely! I think those of us that use natural light (eg wildlife and doco people) are where this really causes a problem, as we can't usually move a big light in next to the tiger and a fill next to its prey!
Steve
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I do docs and nature. The Red is a challenge in some doco setups. For run and gun, I have another camera in my quiver. But when I have time to set up and filter and expose right, the Red delivers far superior images. It's amazing that it's being compared here to cameras more than 10 x its price. Of course the Genesis does some things better. For 1/4 million $ something should work.

I just threw away 25 years of hard won SD footage. With the Red, shooting above 1080 resolution, I can future proof my material and have theatrical resolution as well. At 2K, Genesis can't do that.
 
OK Joofa, fair point, but I think the sort of clipping we're talking about here is where the highlights are way over the top so that all channels clip? Presumably there's not that much difference between when the different channels clip, not as much as a stop? The sort of clipping I've seen in some RED stuff (and a lot of bad video) is where the highlights look to be a good 2-3 or more stops over the top.
Steve
 
Let's see.....I have worked with the Panavision Cameras, the Sony 900/950, the Viper, the Dalsa, and the Red. The first difference is the size factor. Shots can be achieved in a simpler way. It requires less manpower, less support gear, and fits in areas that would be impossible for any other camera. Shooting with Red is very similar to shooting film using a lightweight Movicam or Arriflex. The image quality is superior with Red. The quality of the blacks with Red is ten times better than Sony. The Red also handles the bright sky or hot practical lamps better than the Panavision, D21, Viper, and Dalsa. The Dalsa being a close second for overexposures. With Red you get a simple, lightweight system, with a superior image from the highlights to the shadow area.
 
This discussion invariably leads back to noise tolerance which varies based on material and taste. IMHO the most problematic aspect of the noise is the non-linear nature of how it presents. Zone II and Zone III, especially when the blue channel is starved, can get pretty ugly.

Graeme uses a 66db S/N ratio as the proper way of describing DR in a digital system like the RedOne. I believe him, but what that means in terms of useable DR is the crux of the biscuit - I consider the RedOne a 10 stop camera but that's just MHO.

As I have stated previously, when possible, I keep everything in the image I care about in a 7 stop range during shooting and redistribute the values in the grade to suit the look I want. YMMV. Higher Kelvin lighting strongly preferred (daylight balanced).
 
13 stops according to Ted

13 stops according to Ted

At the DP workshop at NAB Ted stated unequivocly when asked: 13 stops. He didn't even blink. I watched closely.

So there you have it.

In all serious, he could be forgiven for stretching a bit as he is a Mark-Com guy, but he did say it. If it was 11 that would be cool.
 
Joofa said:
Typically one channel clips, then the other, and then all three. So even if one or two channels have clipped, the information in the intact channel(s) may be used to construct the clipped channels. The simplest being a copy-paste of intact channel data into clipped. However, more sophisticated approaches may also be tried here.
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Indeed, and REDCINE for example has the DRX feature that does precisely that.

Not to mention that, though rated at 320 ASA, the camera records above that ceiling, and you can frequently get back highlight information simply by setting the metadata in REDCINE to 250 instead.

Change the metadata, add DRX matrixing, and suddenly you've got another stop of latitude that's probably not showing up in testing if people don't know the tricks. The camera has a decent range, you just have to know how to coax it out.
 
Wow, I'm amazed by all the responses I've seen here.

I'm not planning to buy a RED any time soon. I'm still struggling to pay my bills and afford another P2 card for my HVX200.

I was just curious how the camera lived up to the hype because I hadn't kept track in a while yet, all of sudden, REDs have started cropping up around me and I was VERY surprised to here 8 stops of lattitude and a 320 ASA rating. I mean, that's what the HVX and many of the other 1/3 CCD cameras get. They don't produce 4k though but frankly 720p is more than more of my clients want/need. The true 35mm chip sounds amazing though I guess it'll be a double edged sword if I ever want to try some of my pretentious deep focus shots.

I guess the lattitude and was the biggest thing for me since, as far as I'm concerned, that's more important than resolution and depth of field. I do realize that RAW recovery can give you some extra stops though since I've been blown away at how much info I can retrieve from my Canon DSLR. Personally, I would have rather had less pixels and a 2k camera that had greater latitude and sensativity.

Of course, no doubt that the RED is still the best deal on the planet. I was just coming off the days when it would now only cost 1/10th the price of the big boys but also, somehow, give better performance.

Has it at least made the Varicam obsolete?
 
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