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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

240 fps in 2K

R

Robert Berger

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Sorry posted in audio should be here ,
Jim, in the near by future we have 60 fps in 4K, do we also have at that time 240fps in 2K?
thanks Robert
 
Why the question, because we already can shoot 120 fps wich is 50% of the data for 60 fps in 4K. It also means that for alot of shots you don't need a special high speed camera like the Weisscam.
 
Michael Lindsay said:
sorry, which post said 4k at 60fps..

regards

Michael
Click to expand...

The big studio's want to go for digital cinematography shot at 48 fps, europe like to go to 50 fps and television want to go to 60 fps.

So in the near by future if you want to shoot on a RED with dept of field of 35mm you have to go to at least 60fps for the tv series in hte USA and other 60hz country's like Japan.!

Wait what Jim will say about this, maybe is our RED al prepert for that!!
 
60fps at 4K is the theoretical limit of the sensor but whether it will be practically possible to achieve this is a moot point. It may be that the only way to achieve this is with the Red Flash Drive (get ready to lay down $4500)? Personally I'd be happy with 50fps at 4K, which is equal to or more than many 35mm film cameras can achieve.
 
TV recordings

TV recordings

camlight said:
The big studio's want to go for digital cinematography shot at 48 fps, europe like to go to 50 fps and television want to go to 60 fps.

So in the near by future if you want to shoot on a RED with dept of field of 35mm you have to go to at least 60fps for the tv series in the USA and other 60hz country's like Japan.!
Click to expand...

Episodic TV in USA is shot on film or video at 23.98 fps and then 3:2 pulldown is added in post. Its done this way for economy and to sell the same product to Europeans with a 2:2 pulldown and 5% speed change. I don't see that changing anytime soon. But if they DID, then RED-ONE could accommodate that.
 
davecw said:
60fps at 4K is the theoretical limit of the sensor but whether it will be practically possible to achieve this is a moot point. It may be that the only way to achieve this is with the Red Flash Drive (get ready to lay down $4500)? Personally I'd be happy with 50fps at 4K, which is equal to or more than many 35mm film cameras can achieve.
Click to expand...

Do you remember "showscan" it was in the 90ties, filmspeed 60 fps and showing in the same speed in the Theaters. Very clear ,great feel of dept and beautiful pan's.

I was 2 years ago at a digital cinematography conference in Oslo and there where these framerate's announced. To day they are stil under discussion but we can already see 720p (50p) shootings for smoother camera movements and objects.

I think the 36 code is maybe a forplay for more data movement to go for 60 P !!!
 
Stuart English said:
Episodic TV in USA is shot on film or video at 23.98 fps and then 3:2 pulldown is added in post. Its done this way for economy and to sell the same product to Europeans with a 2:2 pulldown and 5% speed change. I don't see that changing anytime soon. But if they DID, then RED-ONE could accommodate that.
Click to expand...

It would be nice if you don't have to make the pull down, smoother camera movements
 
camlight said:
It would be nice if you don't have to make the pull down, smoother camera movements
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Yeah, but you lose that "film" look that those in NTSC-land can't live without. Shooting at 60p looks like a video camera to western audiences... no way around that. The pans may be smoother from a technical perspective, yes... but from an aesthetic perspective, audiences will not accept it.

Unless it's a football game.
 
There's an entire generation whose primary entertainment is at way beyond 24fps. Even 60fps barely cuts it for them. We can make soothing noises about the aesthetic of 24fps but I suspect we're a dying breed, our audience has left the building and voted with their wallets. The don't want detachment, they want immersive hyper reality with high frame rates, high resolution, 3D and 10.2 audio.
 
camlight said:
I was 2 years ago at a digital cinematography conference in Oslo and there where these framerate's announced. To day they are stil under discussion but we can already see 720p (50p) shootings for smoother camera movements and objects.
Click to expand...

It took us close to 10 years in the States to decide on a HD Transmission standard, by this, your two year frame rate dicussion is young.
 
Pana-tech said:
It took us close to 10 years in the States to decide on a HD Transmission standard, by this, your two year frame rate dicussion is young.
Click to expand...

Because of digital projection and lower cost when you shoot 60p than 24 or 25p to day with digital cinematography makes it easy than do the same one film en with film projectors. And the kids on the block love there high res fast games and you can already see that in the theaters to day.

But the question was can RED ONE shoot 60P in 4K and 240 fps in 2K in the near by future with this sensor??? Because i always understood it will....!!
 
RED One will never shoot faster than 120fps with this sensor. That has been said to be the maximum refresh rate of the current "Mysterium" sensor. It can scan up to 60Hz at 4K resolution... On-board recording of 4K at 60Hz has never been promised, I don't know where people keep getting that idea. 4K at 60Hz was stated as an intended record mode for the RAW port. The RAW port has apparently been discontinued or at least put on hold for now. If you have needs of shooting faster speeds than 120fps, there are other options out there and if it is something you will be doing frequently where re-timing or other CG tricks can't help push RED footage, then RED is probably not the best camera choice for your application.

I believe that we will eventually have on-board recording of 4K at 60fps with the RED One. However, I would only be guessing as to how and when this will happen and if it is even possible with the current hardware or if it will require a hardware upgrade of some type.

As for what you're saying about shooting higher frame rates, I have to disagree with some points. Going digital does not magically make 60fps more affordable than 24fps. It's true that shooting digital can save the cost of film stock and associated processing, but digital introduces its own set of variables. Long-term storage / archival needs, etc.. Once you are in a DI state, whether the footage was shot on film or shot digitally, 60fps is 2.5 times as many frames per second, so 2.5 * the amount of storage, 2.5 * the amount of rendering time, etc.. This adds up quickly when creating additional CG elements or other additions to the footage.

You are going to have pull down / pull up for delivering any project to a variety of markets. Right now, the most universal is to shoot in 24fps (23.98). It converts well to 29.97 for NTSC or 59.97 for NTSC HD. It converts well to 25Hz and 50Hz PAL SD / HD formats and obviously coincides with film projection standards.

Some digital projection systems that go beyond HDTV resolutions will provide rates of 50~60Hz, but many do not. There is a push for higher frame rates right now via digital projection, but it's not a push for display of higher rates. Rather a push for doubled frame rates for 3D content to be viewed with polarized optics or synchronized shutter glasses.

Ironically, the first distribution channel to see capability for high frame rates will be consumer displays / HDTVs. 120Hz HDTVs are available now in limited form. Blu-Ray platform 2.0 has provisions for high frame rates (up to 120Hz).

I hear the frame rate arguments here and there and I do see a market for higher frame rates. But I think at this point, it would be more gimmick than actual product. Kinda like 3D viewing technology. Every couple decades we see a revival of 3D in Hollywood and the technology gets better. We are seeing a revival of 3D right now and it hasn't kicked into full swing just yet. However, I think it's still just a gimmick in many ways. I haven't seen a 3D technology yet that I would consider good enough to sway most movie audiences into wanting to watch all their new movies that way.

The same goes with high frame rates or hyper-reality. Not sure this is going to fly just yet. And most of the people who seem to be wanting it are the a certain class of geeks and the PC gaming crowd who is FPS obsessed anyway. But my negative outlook aside, I still consider myself forward thinking and creative. I've got some ideas for various VFX that could only be pulled off with 60Hz to 120Hz delivery systems. Someday that tech will be here for us to use. Today, it's still a 24fps world for features and much of what is shot for TV. On a VFX note, upping frame rates to 60Hz shifts requirements for over-cranking shots as well. Shooting 240fps for use in a 24fps feature obviously gives us a 10X slow-motion effect... 240fps shot for use in a 60fps feature only gives us a 4X slow-motion effect. Just one more thing to think about in that 2.5X factor of 60fps being more affordable.
 
I only want to make it clear from my View
RED in the current hardware will mot make 4K 60fps even with build 20.
The needlehole is the DSP which in my eyes could not support encoding to
REDcode
You need at least a REDcode 56 to compress it.
Even the current reddrive does not support this stable.
And remember at the moment you even not get 16/9 4K 30 fps in Redcode 36.
I hope this will be done in one of the next builds

What this means
If red one ever will able to do this it needs a serious hardware upgrate.
we will see if Jim do this on the Red one or will keep it for the RED two.
Of cause there are a lot of good reasons to shoot in.

Only btw for 3D red is not a big reason to use 4K 60fps because at the moment the most common 3D dsystem in Cinema ( with one projector with REAL3D) does not support this, and I am sure the Cinemas does invest in new hardware because they just bought it in 2007 and 2008.

Its maybe not easy to accept but the 17.5K hardware has its limitations.
In my view
If you want to do ENG use a Sony or Pansonic
If you need High speed use a vioer or Dals
For the rest you can use the RED and this are a lot of thinks you can make money and have fun.
From the maketing point. I think 4K 60 fps will be a point in 3 or 5 years.
If you dont make a profit till this point, there is something wrong with the buisness.
 
25P is the way to go....

25P is the way to go....

At least 25p is the frame rate that gives 1:1 motion portrayal for Euro Oz African countries.

For USA simply playback at 23.98 then convert to 3:2 pulldown.

23.98p is flawed and convoluted frame rate in comparison.


Mike Brennan
 
Thomson

Thomson

I had a long talk with the Thomson engineers in Holland the other day (the camera division is in Holland and that's where they manufacture the viper) and asked them about the future. They said that apart from 3d they are seriously looking into 100 fps for Europe and 120fps for America. They believe the new generation of gamers are so used to higher frame rates that for them there is no doubt that this is the way to go...
 
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