Birger Lens Mount Reservations

[Mark Thorpe]

Great to see that there is now a sticky on the Birger Mount. Just read through five pages of negative experiences from orders etc so I just hope things eventually work themselves out. Good luck.

 

[Michael Hastings]

Birger "I didn't get a confirmation for my order yet thread"

Birger "I didn't get a confirmation for my order yet thread"

Great to see that there is now a sticky on the Birger Mount. Just read through five pages of negative experiences from orders etc so I just hope things eventually work themselves out. Good luck.

Birger "I didn't get a confirmation for my order yet thread" is supposed to be for those that have received no confirmation or cc charge - i.e. possible failed email or whatever. I.e. essentially "no experience", the negative experience, gripes, humor info etc. is still supposed to stay over here.

BTW other than non-communication and the delay due to changes - has anyone had an actually bad experience with Birger? Maybe he can do a better job communicating in general, but he can't possibly hold a couple hundred people's hand through this process (just as RED could not and did not through 2 years of holding deposits and 9-12 months of delays) - so has anyone actually been burned? I.E. anybody get their credit card charged, asked for a refund and not gotten it? Or had an unpleasant phone conversation, nasty email, etc.

I mean, I sent the guy my camera, he treated it with care, and when I needed it back he FEDEXed it back to me with his industrial mount on it so I could shoot the shuttle launch - which I wouldn't have been able to do otherwise. He has always been just as pleasant on the phone as anyone at RED (I doubt if he is as cute as Kelly, but other than that...), has never BSed me about times - always expressing them as tentative just as RED always did, etc. I don't always get through to him, but anytime I have left a message with any significant issue (i.e. needing the camera) he has returned the call promptly

Now back to work machining parts for RED U/W housings- and if you call in the next couple hours you probably won't get an answer from me either....

 

[Mark Crabtree]

Beta Tester

Beta Tester

I have had the same positve experiences as Aqua. What he said.

 

[Mark Thorpe]

Great to hear. Let's all hope this is a sign of fortuitous development.

 

[planet e]

but he can't possibly hold a couple hundred people's hand through this process

hold hands? isn't that a bit of an overstatement?

we're just talking about the most basic business practice of requesting orders and then issuing receipts in a reasonable time frame and maybe even responding periodically to customers' bewilderment at the thwarted expectations...i don't see any requests for hand-holding here.

most of us just want to know whether we made the dang list. or not.

as paolo said awhile back, let me know i'm in and i'll wait like penelope. i've waited for a RED camera since october 2006, with a little piece of paper with #1008 on it. so there's no lack of patience here. it's a lack of knowing.

i'd wait another year for a fully realized birger mount, if only i had a little piece of paper or e-mail or a list of names posted here or something that said, "fax received, thanks for playing, you'll get it when it's good and ready"....

it's not as if my lens collection, purchased originally for an entirely different application, is going anywhere....why wouldn't i be patient?

 

[Michael Hastings]

hold hands? isn't that a bit of an overstatement?

we're just talking about the most basic business practice of requesting orders and then issuing receipts in a reasonable time frame and maybe even responding periodically to customers' bewilderment at the thwarted expectations...i don't see any requests for hand-holding here.

most of us just want to know whether we made the dang list. or not.

as paolo said awhile back, let me know i'm in and i'll wait like penelope. i've waited for a RED camera since october 2006, with a little piece of paper with #1008 on it. so there's no lack of patience here. it's a lack of knowing.

i'd wait another year for a fully realized birger mount, if only i had a little piece of paper or e-mail or a list of names posted here or something that said, "fax received, thanks for playing, you'll get it when it's good and ready"....

it's not as if my lens collection, purchased originally for an entirely different application, is going anywhere....why wouldn't i be patient?

planet:

again, I'm not saying it is right that he hasn't managed to go through the paperwork and confirm people - I'm just saying that RED, funded by a billionaire and with a 10+ person staff since at least before NAB 2008 - only a couple who are actually seriously involved with the design - and with the actual manufacturing offshore, wasn't a lot better. I ordered at NAB 2006 and I'm not sure if I ever got an email in the first year. I got a Titanium R and a credit card receipt, but that was because we physically ran the card in the NAB booth and Ted handed me the R. But I remember there were a number of people that had problems placing orders, getting confirmation, etc. And when my RED 206 number came up there were significant snafus, poor communications and it wasn't isolated - there were similar occurrences with a friend of mine's order just a few SN's later than mine.

All I'm saying is that when it came to REAL stuff that had to be done - shipping the My #206 back and forth; or talking about having Birger hang on to my AC adapter when RED sent him a camera (which they were supposed to loan him for a couple of months but then took back after a couple of weeks) but no power capability, etc. - all of the communication and follow through was excellent.

I think we are dealing with a situation where the main guy is the main guy for everything, who is used to a situation where he sells a few individual mounts to scientists or whatever, and then maybe 50 or 100 on a single order to an OEM or industrial client and maybe has 50 to a 100 total deals in a year. And now he has a couple hundred individuals, anxious for this new version of his product that is gamechanging in its impact for us but needed some mods and he got virtually no assistance from RED - who used his already demonstrated functioning EOS mount as a major PR announcement at NAB 2007, but then presumably figured out that Birger and even their own RED Nikon mount threatened to undermine sales of their PL lenses and left him in the dark when they made significant changes.

I just put myself in his shoes and figure he had to go into triage mode - focusing totally on getting it done, while handling his regular orders to keep the doors open - and whatever else HAD to be done and ignoring everything else. If you emailed or called and said hey I need the money that is tied up on my credit card, my sense is he would take care of it right away, but all the rest just has to sit on hold.

 

[planet e]

well, you always make good points, and i think there would be a lot more uproar without your steadying hand to reassure the rest of us. thank you.

 

[Ketch Rossi]

Totally agree,

I paid in full for my mount right off the back, but after the first invoice of the actual charge I didn't receive further responses to my e-mails.

Didn't bother me too much as I totally understand this kind of undevours taken by Eric, so I wait patiently for the mount to arrive.

I know that in my specific situation I postponed the cameras, so no biggy, but even now that I'm, finalizing the orders, I sit patient and wait.

I have no doubt that Birger's mount will revolutionized REd even further as Canon glass wryly rocks.

I do however fill for those that already have the camera and didn't purchase any PL glass as they intended from the moment they order the Birger mount, to only go with Canon glass, like my friend Paolo.

So I hope that soon all gets worked out for all.


Ciao,

KETH ROSSI
www.KETCHFRAME.com

 

[David Litchfield]

I think the vast majority of us haven't had our cards charged yet. I'm sure Erik is wanting to do that just as much as we want to receive the mount. It's frustrating, but he's clearly decided to block out everthing and finish the product. I'm sure it'll be worth it.

David Litchfield

 

[Michael Hastings]

well, you always make good points, and i think there would be a lot more uproar without your steadying hand to reassure the rest of us. thank you.

Well, I'm a fanboy - but not just a fanboy - I really want to see a solution that let's us take advantage of the sophistication of modern optics - and I mean not just the resolution and such (which is available in cine glass), but just as important, the incorporated USM motors, Image stabilization, metadata, and probably most of all the cost effectiveness that comes with having millions of still photographers use the same lenses - not to mention the potential of straight forward software tools to correct whatever aberrations may still exist. All of these things are unlikely to come about on the Cooke/Zeiss/Arri/Panavision side simply because the volume does not support the many, many millions of dollars it takes to develop those things.

I doubt if all the cine lenses ever sold add up to the dollar volume in SLR lenses that Canon does in a single year. Not to mention Nikon, Sigma, Sony and all the others.

And if Erik gets hit by a bus, then we all just need to get together and develop it ourselves. But I'm taking the approach that anything I can do to encourage his effort is worthwhile. On the other hand you guys pushing may be a part of the process too - good cop, bad cop can be an effective technique.

I think the vast majority of us haven't had our cards charged yet. I'm sure Erik is wanting to do that just as much as we want to receive the mount. It's frustrating, but he's clearly decided to block out everthing and finish the product. I'm sure it'll be worth it.

David Litchfield

David: I think you are right on the CC thing, I don't have all the details, but I remember when I first talked with him after the RED mount change, and particularly after he saw my camera and the new mount, that he knew it was going to take significant mods and he wasn't going to charge any more of the credit cards.

Also, every business needs cash flow - and I know he bought a 3D printer and a pick and place machine for the circuit boards - both in the tens of thousands of dollars. In a way I think the fact that he hasn't charged those cards is a good sign - it wouldn't have been outrageous to just charge them and offer a refund to anyone that wanted one - and be sitting on all that cash. But as soon as he figured out that there might be a delay he stopped charging.

And this is where I think RED should shoulder some of the responsibility - if they had simply told him the extent and particulars of their mount change (which they knew in October or before) he could have said "hey guys, this is a complete redesign and may be months..." Instead RED, whether by oversight or by design, strung us all along and he didn't find out what really happened until I sent him my camera.

That may be why I'm a little more understanding - because as a manufacturer I know what a blow that was.

Whatever we think of his communication or the delays, I just don't think he's out to scam anyone.

 

[Joel Kaye]

I do however fill for those that already have the camera and didn't purchase any PL glass as they intended from the moment they order the Birger mount, to only go with Canon glass.

I feel for me too. ;-) Luckily, I'm busy with other stuff. Also, I got a confirmation and res number from Birger so I at least know what's going on. Still - I'd like a weekly update even if it's no new news. I don't think even Aqua has been able to pull focus with the mount yet, have you? I just want to know the basic functionality has been solved and we truly are just waiting for the parts to show up at this point.

 

[Kenn Christenson]

Here's another vote for weekly updates. Sure like to know if the mounts are shipping, yet - and the progress of the Nikon mounts.

 

[Michael Hastings]

I think sheltie guy has been using focus and iris on birger

I think sheltie guy has been using focus and iris on birger

I feel for me too. ;-) Luckily, I'm busy with other stuff. Also, I got a confirmation and res number from Birger so I at least know what's going on. Still - I'd like a weekly update even if it's no new news. I don't think even Aqua has been able to pull focus with the mount yet, have you? I just want to know the basic functionality has been solved and we truly are just waiting for the parts to show up at this point.

I think sheltie guy has been using focus and iris on birger.

I haven't really set up to do it because I've been busy with housings and would have to set up a laptop or buy a PDA to do it. And the only thing I really wanted to shoot (other than underwater - which I can't really work a computer inside the housing) was the Shuttle Launch STS-122 and my longest lens was a manual focus manual iris 300mm Zeiss Contax Yashica mount lens which I used on the birger mount with an adapter. So it was in "dumb" mode, but it worked very well - check out the STS-122 thread to find the sample footage that has been loaded onto Chris Lyon's website.

However as far as basic functionality i.e. being able to focus and adjust iris that was solved years ago - that is the whole point of Birger - he was already making that product for industrial and scientific video use, before RED existed - where you controlled those things via a computer.

We are waiting for two things 1) a specific version for mounting on RED with red-style power and RS232 connectors and 2) Encoder knobs that work like follow focus, that take the place of the PDA. Even though I see no reason why that won't work smoothly (since you are basically just sending the same commands via the knob rather than the computer) until we actually see it, we can't say positively. The RED mount change necessitated a complete physical redesign - which is the most time consuming part since you are usually dependent on some outside fabricators and then Eric decided to add a few tweaks - such as the "on the mount" iris control which had been talked about as a maybe a long time ago but then abandoned on the "announced official version" last Thanksgiving.

BTW there is a good chance the focus encoders will work VERY smoothly - maybe even better than a normal cine follow focus motor on some of the lenses. (The smoothness is somewhat affected by the smoothness of the lens motors themselves which is why the new USM motors are preferable and one might expect the more expensive lenses to be a little smoother.)

I'm ready for a weekly update too, so I'll try to remember to call Erik tomorrow (I'm scrambling to get a housing together for sharkguy's National geo shoot).

 

[Michael M]

I'm just about to get delivery on my Red and have no lens. Since I already own 24-70mm f/2.8 L, 70-200mm f/2.8 L IS canon glass I would love to buy the Birger and then see if I would need an additional lens, but since it is not here should I just buy the Red 18-50? Any other suggestions? If I like the look of the canon glass + Red I'm not sure why I would need the 18-50 which means I would probably sell it and hope it doesn't depreciate. Hopefully they will chime in with an approximate delivery if you put in an order now. And we will see some footage soon.

 

[Michael Hastings]

Buy the Nikon dumb mount from RED or Doug Underdahl

Buy the Nikon dumb mount from RED or Doug Underdahl

I'm just about to get delivery on my Red and have no lens. Since I already own 24-70mm f/2.8 L, 70-200mm f/2.8 L IS canon glass I would love to buy the Birger and then see if I would need an additional lens, but since it is not here should I just buy the Red 18-50? Any other suggestions? If I like the look of the canon glass + Red I'm not sure why I would need the 18-50 which means I would probably sell it and hope it doesn't depreciate. Hopefully they will chime in with an approximate delivery if you put in an order now. And we will see some footage soon.

Buy the Nikon dumb mount from RED or Doug Underdahl - doug may be quicker - and use a nikon lens and sell it when Birger comes in.

Nikon Imported
Zoom Wide Angle-Telephoto 35-105mm f/3.5-4.5 AIS Manual Focus Lens
B&H $399 new 199 used

or there is a
Sigma 28-70/2.8 Zoom Lens f/Nikon AIS USA - Sigma 541006 #541006 Filter size 72mm. Macro rating 1:5.9. Dimensions: 3 x 3.6''. Weighs 20.4oz. Includes caps. For about $189 from a couple sources.
Probably about the same optical quality as the RED 18-50 (probably rehoused Sigma)

I'm sure there are a lot of used Nikon AIS that have manual iris on them - I'm just not that familiar with nikon lenses. I do know I have used a Nikon 50mm on the birger mount in "dumb" mode with an adapter - so if you buy one it could end up being your manual backup. (the adapters are about $20)

To answer the obvious question for those that haven't read all these posts - Erik briefly offered to provide a dumb mount as a stop gap as he already has a lot of that stuff on hand - but quickly retracted. Conspiracy theorists may speculate on why.

 

[Nils J. Nesse]

Nikon Imported
Zoom Wide Angle-Telephoto 35-105mm f/3.5-4.5 AIS Manual Focus Lens
B&H $399 new 199 used

I'll suggest the 35-70mm f/2.8 AF-D, shorter range but better quality and constant aperture. You could also add the 20-35mm f/2.8 AF-D, if you like wide angle. Or e.g. the 75-150mm f/3.5 Seies E if you like tele. These lenses are very good quality, and inexpensive on ebay etc.

or there is a
Sigma 28-70/2.8 Zoom Lens f/Nikon AIS USA - Sigma 541006 #541006 Filter size 72mm. Macro rating 1:5.9. Dimensions: 3 x 3.6''. Weighs 20.4oz. Includes caps. For about $189 from a couple sources.

This doesn't have manual iris control, so it's no good for a dumb mount. But it looks like their 24-70mm f/2.8 has it. (Older construction?)

 

[darryl phinnessee]

I don't post much, but I follow the posts here regularly. I'm receiving my Red Camera and some accessories this afternoon, ... others to be picked up at Element Technica. I'm also awaiting a Birger Canon mount. I just spoke with Eric (Birger) and he asked me to mention here that first canon mounts will be shipping in approx 2 weeks! Very nice fellow, by the way.

 

[Joel Kaye]

I just spoke with Eric (Birger) and he asked me to mention here that first canon mounts will be shipping in approx 2 weeks! Very nice fellow, by the way.

I wonder who'll hit the market with SLR mounts first... Birger, RED or Long Valley... and I hope he sends them overnight or next day air... not GROUND!!

 

[Karl H]

2 weeks, waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa. I was hoping things would stay on schedule for this week. oh well..

 

[Joel Kaye]

2 weeks, waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa. I was hoping things would stay on schedule for this week. oh well..

I just saw a thread where a few guys are already getting their Nikon mounts from Long Valley. Guess I gambled wrong as far as who would deliver first... but I really buy into the smart mount vs. the dumb mount if at all possible.