Witness Marks On RED, but Not for me

[Jay A. Kelley]

Kind of sad this has to be my 1000th post...

A lot of us that have been using the camera have pointed out that there are no witness marks on it. (Sensor plane, etc.).

Well, from this point forward, RED is including this.

So in other words, a feature we've said is needed on the camera has been heard by RED, and they did something about it... Just not for the people that asked for it.

Did I miss something?

I've had my camera for a hair over 30 days (33 to be exact), and I've already missed an upgrade to the body?

For the record I voiced my concerns to RED privately before posting this. I contacted them and offered to send the camera back as my cost to get something done. I pitched my reasoning that I felt my camera was a little too new to be missing out on any upgrades and felt my camera should be taken care of.

I was kindly and politely told "no".

You know I always thought the "constantly changing" line for RED cameras was cute and all, but if it means constantly changing, but not for the saps that jumped in early, then I am not so sure how I feel about it now.

True, a witness mark will not kill me. But could it be this is just the beginning of more "Little things". RED did this change, not for those of us who requested it, but to improve FUTURE sales of the camera.

As an early adoptor.. I'm not feeling the love here. And for the record, there are those who reserved before me, and those who reserved after me, it's not about how fast you got it, but how you're taken care of once you get your camera.

I am sharing this on here to see if I am off base in my feelings on this matter, or to see if others agree. I am fine if I'm wrong on this, but I don't FEEL fine right now. I feel like perhaps I should have waited.

I know I am going to hear a lot of "Stop whining and do it yourself" but I am the kind of person who feels any un-reversable changes to the camera should be done by the company that made it.. But that's just me.

Jay

 

[Stephen Webb]

Jay, present for you:

Be interesting to see if my camera has one. #692 pre-dates the announcement of witness marks being added to new cameras, but as it hasn't shipped yet I wonder...?

 

[Jay A. Kelley]

Thanks Stephen..
I will certainly find a way to deal with this, but here's an interesting question for you. Since your camera has NOT shipped yet, can you not say: "Hey don't send my camera without witness marks". I mean, you have not even taken possesion yet.

If you have not gotten your camera, I would check this before they send it.

Or you will be in my position and stuck with white paper..

Jay

 

[Tim Fassnacht]

jay,

This handle system has one build into it!

http://store.simvideo.com/

maybe that will help

 

[Charles Perkins]

I've had my camera for a hair over 30 days (33 to be exact), and I've already missed an upgrade to the body?

Jay

changes are going to happen, they are not going to be worked around a persons schedule. you got your camera, I assume you got the focus hook, so just be happy.

its like the people who buy an apple product a few days before a new one is released and then moan that they should get a free upgrade.
I assume it was good enough for you then and I'm sure it will be good enough for you now.

if its that much of a pain send it in.

 

[Rudi Herbert]

Jay,

I feel you, I really do, but I understand RED's position as well. I posted long ago something saying that, at some point, Jim & co. would have to take a deep breath and decide when would they start not retroffiting existing cameras for every little detail they came up with or forgot/were unable to include in the original. Our economy is weak, and though I would hate to be one of those who constantly elaborate on Jim's marketing strategy (None of us knows and its none of our business, except for wishing they do turn a profit from day one) but with the constant send-old-cameras-in-fix-them-send-them-out-again (whether shipping is at your discretion or not) the team never really has a chance to concentrate on moving forward and they remain in a somewhat stationary position and those $17.5K become less and less and less. It appears they have reached that point already, and you are the unwilling and underserving "beneficiary" of that tough, but neccessary stance.

For whatever is worth, shipping a digital cinema camera without a focus plane mark, however easy it is to do on your own, which is something absolutely fundamental to proper functioning, and something VERY easy to do at any point during production is a bit baffling, but that's the way it happened. Why don't you try buying one of them focus hooks that seem to be available at the RED store and be done with it? Try and eliminate as much pain and frustration as possible and just keep marching on....it's what I would do...

 

[Stephen Webb]

Since your camera has NOT shipped yet, can you not say: "Hey don't send my camera without witness marks".

I'm sure I could, but I've been waiting that long to get it sorted, paid and shipped that I don't really want to delay it just for a witness mark. I've got the focus hook ordered so that will have to do if the witness mark is not there.

However if it is there I'll let you know.

 

[Jay A. Kelley]

Thanks for the helpful comments guys (Except for you Chas, you were not helpful at all).

It sounds like this is one of those things I will have to live with.

It kind of sucks, but there were many who said "You know I think I'll just wait until they shake all the flaws out of this thing". Turns out there was a lot of wisdom in their words, and I am now learning exactly what they were thinking when they said it.

I'll suck it up, and move forward.

Jay

 

[Jay A. Kelley]

Additional note

Additional note

I also have to point out that RED has not let this complaint go.. They also "feel my pain" and are trying their best to make me a happy puppy.

No, they are not upgrading the camera, they said they can't, but they are doing everything else they can to help.

It sure makes "sucking it up" easier when you know the company would prefer to give you what you ask for, but they just can't.

Jay

 

[Dominic Cochran]

I've got the focus hook ordered so that will have to do if the witness mark is not there.

If you could only have one, Wouldn't you choose the focus hook anyway?

 

[fightordie]

Jay you are right on with this. If this is just the beginning then expect other things to be added and Red knew this and Red should have been prepared for it.
Being an early adopter should be supported. All the work done with the cam benefits Red acceptance so quid pro quo.

 

[Eryc Tramonn]

Thanks for the helpful comments guys (Except for you Chas, you were not helpful at all).

It sounds like this is one of those things I will have to live with.

It kind of sucks, but there were many who said "You know I think I'll just wait until they shake all the flaws out of this thing". Turns out there was a lot of wisdom in their words, and I am now learning exactly what they were thinking when they said it.

I'll suck it up, and move forward.

Jay

Hmmm, funny how tunes change.

Sorry it had to go down that way Jay, but I agree with everyone else here too. At a certain point, the RED team has to draw a line in the sand; that's one of the primary reasons I have been willing to wait and see just how things progress. Listening to other early adopter's critiques isn't the fearless stance that Jim and the rest of the team needed to move forward, but it's the position I was, and AM comfortable with. I would imagine, soon there won't be much of a queue, and most of the bugs will have been squashed.

So far, it seems Jim and company have generally exceeded expectations, so I guess you'll have to suffer the few shortcomings. Unfortunately. Overall though, you've made history with your intrepid leap into a new technology. And not having something so minor will not affect the quality of your productions...well maybe your focus will be consistently soft, but you could start a new style that way. Kidding.

E

 

[Steve Sanacore]

The alternative for RED would be to hold up any improvements until they release a new version, every year or so, like Apple does. Then early users couldn't complain as much. I would rather have it this way, where upgrades are consistently added. I would think any major improvements will be offered for a retrofit. RED seems to want us to have the best of what they can offer although at times I would think it's prohibitive for them to offer free upgrades for every little item.

IMO

 

[jbeale]

On the one hand, I can sympathize with disappointment at not receiving what "obviously should have been included". On the other hand, in this specific instance, are we talking about something that takes more than a few minutes to fix?

Assuming your PL mount is set correctly, you measure 52 mm back from the flange, and there is your focal plane. Mark it, and you're done. Yes?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arri_PL

 

[Brook Willard]

All we need is one of these. If RED made a tall, skinny sticker [with a cutout for the focus hook] that was tough as hell [sort of a rigid plastic with a heavy adhesive on the back] that lined up with the front of the RED body and put a fixed line at the proper depth... we'd be in business. They could make 1,000 of those for pennies and ship them out to all of the customers... or they could make them available on their website for a few bucks.

The solution doesn't need to be a dremel... but it needs to be more permanent and exact than a piece of paper tape, strip of velcro or a grease pencil line.

 

[Stephen Webb]

If you could only have one, Wouldn't you choose the focus hook anyway?

Yup.

If the witness mark is there, it's a bonus.

 

[planet e]

I have to agree with Jay that this feedback was everywhere, lots of calls for witness marks...and the minute that RED made an interchangeable mount that could accept all of these different lenses, it should have been a gimme... it's odd that RED didn't listen--they have listened to so much else...

On the other hand, i would have paid $45 for a focus hook and been happy to have my camera 30 days earlier...seems a small price to pay to be up and shooting and RED-ready. And marking up your own camera, as suggested, is free.

Witness marks and audio pots...two major oversights on two features which should have just happened, but didn't. still and all, considering what they are trying to do and the remarkable time frame in which they have done it, not a terrible track record.

 

[Ben Goldenberg]

changes are going to happen, they are not going to be worked around a persons schedule. you got your camera, I assume you got the focus hook, so just be happy.

its like the people who buy an apple product a few days before a new one is released and then moan that they should get a free upgrade.
I assume it was good enough for you then and I'm sure it will be good enough for you now.

if its that much of a pain send it in.

This is a bad analogy as apple ripps off their own customers. They don't have any true competition as if you want final cut you go with them. I spent 6 grand on the g4 17 inch powerbook when it first came out. As soon as I opened the box there was an announcement for the g5 desktop. I tried to return the powerbook and they refused. You argue that it was good enough for me when I paid, but what you are not condidering is that the laptop at the time was almost the same power as their best desktop meanwhile the G5 was more powerful and cheaper. I chose portability and paid more, then some jerk spent 3 grand less and got the desktop, then they dropped 3 grand off of the price of the powerbook. If RED drops the price of the RED one by 3 grand I will be very ticked off!

 

[Jay A. Kelley]

Hmmm, funny how tunes change.

Sorry it had to go down that way Jay, but I agree with everyone else here too. At a certain point, the RED team has to draw a line in the sand; that's one of the primary reasons I have been willing to wait and see just how things progress. Listening to other early adopter's critiques isn't the fearless stance that Jim and the rest of the team needed to move forward, but it's the position I was, and AM comfortable with. I would imagine, soon there won't be much of a queue, and most of the bugs will have been squashed.

So far, it seems Jim and company have generally exceeded expectations, so I guess you'll have to suffer the few shortcomings. Unfortunately. Overall though, you've made history with your intrepid leap into a new technology. And not having something so minor will not affect the quality of your productions...well maybe your focus will be consistently soft, but you could start a new style that way. Kidding.

E

Soft focus, a new style........ Yeah... I can do that....

Jay

 

[Jay A. Kelley]

Just so you all know...

I do not come on here with my opinions and think I am right all the time. I happen to be one of those rare individuals who comes on here to share my thoughts in the hopes of getting enlightening feedback in order to help me with a final decision.

In this case, while I was not happy with the situation regarding my camera and RED, two things have changed my mind:

1: RED went out of their way to help in any way they could (Thanks Brent)
2: Something none of you said directly, but your comments made me think nonetheless: To be fair to people like me, they could retro the cameras and update them, OR if they were a smart business they would simply HOLD the improvements until enough of them existed to warrent a RED 1.5 or RED 2. This would result in a lot of cool things being denied users who are able to benefit from the improvments now. I like stuff, but I'm not so selfish that I would deny users 600+ (Or whatever the number is) something neat for their RED just because it was not available when I got mine.

So... I'm wrong.. My camera is what it is, and I will make it wonderful..

It's mine.. my own.... MY PRECIOUS...



Jay