Dead Internet of Film Equipment Reviews

[Zack Birlew]

Hi, everybody, in my recent searches I have taken interest in everything from Contax Zeiss lenses, classic and current PL lenses, geared heads, anamorphics, 2/3" B4 lenses, to legacy cinema cameras used in the early to mid 2000's like the Sony F35 and Arri D20/D21 and even just reviews on previous generations of cameras like the Canon C500 and Sony F65. Well, in my searches I couldn't help but notice the complete lack of test footage, reviews, articles, and even current day tests and reviews for legacy pickups or "looking back" pieces. Sometimes there may be one article or video for a piece of equipment that has been touted as "industry standard" or "wildly popular for the time" or "often used" and other such phrases.

Also, much of the test footage from several cameras were uploaded sometimes only in SD format and otherwise heavily compressed HD despite the stated original material (ie. Filmed in 1080P DPX 4444 uncompressed but uploaded in 480P Quicktime). As for lenses, there's scattered forum posts and many times not even a spec sheet or video review as if that apparently widely used lens seemingly just doesn't exist outside of maybe a support page or press release article.

What is odd is that while there's hardly any information on many items, these things fly off of the auction sites and many times just sit there at such high prices that it doesn't even make sense, such as the price of certain B4 lenses from the early 2000's. The Sony F65 is a good example as well as it is now more or less a legacy system and many of its drawbacks are known such as its size and the need for specific large recorders to get the full quality out of it and it still commands a $7,000-$10,000+ sticker price whereas the smaller and more versatile Sony F55 system has fallen down to the $3,000 area and the comparison between Sony F65 test footage versus Sony F55 test footage is like a puddle compared to a lake and both are left behind with an ocean of Sony F35 HD test footage. Still, there's not even anything fun like "upscaling tests" or "cinematic" tests outside of a few videos and not even any follow-ups like "Part 2" or "More messing around", etc.

The question is where are people getting their information from and what is justifying the scarcity and pricing on certain legacy video gear compared to current offerings? If many of these pieces of equipment are so desirable then where are the reviews and articles and test examples to show their worth today? Short films, old commercials, convention demos, and even whole indie films are just missing from the internet and seemingly everywhere else so what happened to all these "projects" and "works" that have been made day in and day out with this equipment and where can any of it be seen? Even on REDUser there's been people since the beginning talking about all the work they've done with RED cameras and outside of clips shown in the footage forum, where's all the movies, commercials, short films, etc. to show that 10,000+ minimum of each camera body have been put to work again and again from owner to owner and even just across all the REDusers?

Lastly, if some cameras, lenses, or other equipment become rare and hard to find, like the Sony F65 or something really forgotten like the old Silicon Imaging SI-2K or even certain cinema geared tripod heads, where did they go and why aren't they traded around more often? Out of all the legacy equipment being sold off and liquidated time and time again from broadcast places and rental houses, why doesn't a lot of it seem to get around or even get discovered by new filmmakers to work their way back to current production companies? Even vast numbers of SD and HD video cameras and the behemoth of video camera add-ons, the 35mm lens adapter, are becoming extremely rare, it's so strange!

I know Youtube hasn't been around forever but all this tech and equipment has surely passed through time and again and made their way into so many peoples hands by now that somebody would have at least mentioned these things at some point or made something with them to fill their content streams or Instagram posts. Perhaps it's just the algorithm hiding all of these videos or people have taken them down for one reason or another over time, it's just very strange.

What do you think? Is this another example of the "Dead Internet Theory" or is there just a complete universe of shareable content out there that's just sitting on people's spare hard drives or tape cassettes for one reason or another? Also, why is a lot of this stuff just disappearing and becoming scarce?

 

[Karim D. Ghantous]

What is odd is that while there's hardly any information on many items, these things fly off of the auction sites and many times just sit there at such high prices that it doesn't even make sense, such as the price of certain B4 lenses from the early 2000's.

I think I can offer some insight into this specific issue. I see a lot of Leica M cameras sit on eBay for weeks and even months. For some reason, there are some people who think that a Leica M9 is worth AU$7,000. Of course, all it takes is one sucker to buy it, but there seems to be a lack of suckers when it comes to Leica cameras.

People who want Leicas know exactly what they are worth. I would not mind an M9, but it's not worth that much. You can get an M10 for AU$7,000, and even that is too much for an M10! The M9 is not that special and people know it.

The M6 has come down in price recently, thanks to the re-issue by Leica. People are now waiting for a new one rather than buying an overpriced used one. As a result, they are cheaper now than a year ago. I have auction results on record to prove that an M6 cannot command the premium it once did.

The problem with eBay is that people hold out for a high BIN price. Instead, they should start an auction at 99c, and just let it fly. The market is always right, and buyers are not that desperate enough to pay your BIN premium. Sometimes BIN prices are fine, of course.

Same thing with cars. I see some cars sit on websites for months and months. People are very, very precious, and they want top dollar for their goods. These people are not intelligent sellers. Selling a car has one function: to move it out of the way for another one. That's it. You will never recover your costs of running a car, with very rare exceptions. Cars that are priced well do not last long.

I almost bought an Aaton A-Minima once. It was about $2,000 or so. I thought, well, why not? I didn't buy it but I should have. I would have made a nice profit on it.

 

[Zack Birlew]

I almost bought an Aaton A-Minima once. It was about $2,000 or so. I thought, well, why not? I didn't buy it but I should have. I would have made a nice profit on it.

I've considered the same with a Sony F35 and now even the Sony F55 for artistic reasons, despite having a RED One MX, but it's all tied up in the pricing as a kit for either one currently is about as much as a Nikon Z8 or Canon R5C which would be more helpful professionally at this point as 8K options versus upscaling HD or 4K, nice HD and 4K though they may be. Now, if the Sony F65 dropped down to the $3,000-ish range I might be more interested but still, it's hard to compare when there's so many new options now.

However, like the Arri D20 and D21 I mentioned, I would worry at this point about them just disappearing and not even being offered anymore even just to fool around with and see what they were like, much like my purchase of a Panasonic HDX900 not too long ago which I got for a couple hundred bucks and, admittedly, only really because I couldn't find a Sony F950 or even an F900 for a decent price. In my testing it's a great camera and I've had fun seeing how things could have been had I had one of those during my early film education and I now have an interest in the 2/3" B4 format, there's definitely a vibe to it that just works.

Another example is the Panasonic AG-3DA1, their pro 3D camcorder that came out at $21,000, more than a RED One MX as new, a ridiculous prospect and even harder to use today as it was then, currently there's a couple available on auction for $7,500 and $8,500, a laughable amount compared to what can currently be had for the same amount of money as a video professional.

However, those could be the only two to pop up for the foreseeable future and who knows if the price will drop or even increase as there are certain VHS and Video 8 cameras that are fetching hundreds of dollars now, for who knows what reason or purpose, in 2023. For all I know, like those Arri D20 or D21 cameras, the AG-3DA1 cameras could become so rare that there won't be another chance to get one. That's what's strange, as being as expensive and specialized as they were, surely they must have been babied devices, they all couldn't have been beaten up and ruined or worn out by all the companies that bought them, so where are they and where are all the "lucky finds" and "legacy treasure" videos to display them and show them off?

 

[Phil Holland]

I could write a book worth of a response to this, but I'll keep it as streamlined as I can to summarize how we got to now and a variety of things surrounding points brought up. Two poster.

1. Many, many people aren't posting about the gear they use on their projects. And many, many people don't post a lot or any BTS about the projects they shoot.

2. The majority of content produced in the world doesn't become advertising for various pieces of equipment used on those productions.

2. It does take resources to produce camera reviews. Though some did things to further the industry's knowledge base, others quickly learned to monetize it (particularly after some time passed). Publicly, privately, or a combination of both. This also has become a profitable avenue for people to just "do that" now.

3. The internet became very accessible in the mid to late 2010s and most filmmakers didn't tend to their post nor think about web delivery until it really happened during the more mobile era. YouTube started 2005. I should highlight fast internet has only been around for a decade for some people. And most still don't have very fast internet.

4. People buy cameras for many reasons. Particularly when it comes to legacy systems, it's good to have a backup when parts are not available. Same very, very true for film cameras as well.

5. REDuser isn't the only place on the internet. And certainly not in the social media era. It is a good place for discussion and the ability to find discussions/topics of interest.

6. Most professionals don't share with the world what they do or how they are doing it for a million reasons. Even some who do share, rarely show you everything they are up to.

7. A lot of older, less expensive equipment is offloaded to other countries, sometimes for a significant profit over say what it might find in Los Angeles on the used market.

8. The industry in the 2020s is very, very large. It grew rapidly through the 2010s. In ramped up towards the end of the 2000s, but still fairly small. In the 1990s the film industry was truly a smaller circle. Prior to that, I have no knowledge really as it was before my professional experience. But I know from various mentors who had 10-30+ years on me when I started the film industry was very small.

9. To summarize #8 a bit. Theatrical Films and Television. Eventually VOD, Cable, and Pay Per View. Then the Internet. Then Streaming Internet. Then Mobile Video. Then Streaming Services. Also tied into this timeline is the expensive growth in markets that were extremely small or nonexistent prior to the now.

10. I guess more of a personal angle here. I began in the film industry prior to the internet. So that meant getting experience by working on productions and in studios. I also had the benefit to observe productions filming locally when I was younger as filming was common where I grew up. I learned a lot just by watching, which made me curious enough to pursue things further. From there learning from everybody who had experience and seeking out sudo-mentorships along the way was common. Anytime I was on set with somebody I could learn from, I eather watched/listened/observed, or sought out advice when that time became appropriate. The core benefit of my personal journey is I came up through the studio system and learned from people who built this industry. And there were many opportunities along the way in pre, production, and post that I very much grabbed with both hands. Subsequently that's allowed for me to get to where I am now.

 

[Phil Holland]

11. Navigating changing waters. I won't go too deep here on this, but there's a bit of maturity and changing interests for so many along the way. Combined with a great deal of content that is rehashed, reposted, or repackaged it's moderately a bouncing echo chamber of disenchantment. People who don't float in the same stream have brought their talents and efforts sometimes elsewhere. Sometimes not. I struggle with this a bit as I'm busier than ever as a filmmaker and still want to contribute to the community, but it's also evident if I was really going to invest time and resources as I do with my professional career, I would need to dedicate more time to those things. And that's after I've dedicated a great deal of time already to the film industry as a whole publicly and privately. That whole life/work balance thing is a crazy thing.

12. Medium level disgust has scared some professionals away. The internet is a wild place. I've talked to some professionals who had more of a presence on the net. That has become something not-so-savory in recent years, particularly through last decade. Now that more people are online, you get more of everything that comes with that. That can have a negative impact on your mental health and even livelihood. If any of those folks are feeling pressure in those categories, they decided to just turn down a different road and not look back. Interestingly many of these people are online elsewhere, mostly in private groups or email groups. I'm in a few of those and the level of experience and forward thinking towards the next is admirable in most cases. While at the same time some are just catching up to things that were standardized a decade or two ago. Fascinating dynamic which highlights so many aspects of our industry now.

13. Subtle sidebar tied to industry growth. I'm in LA where we have some of the oldest rental houses in the industry. Though most of the rental houses around me were formed in the last 5-7 years. That's not to mention various web driven rental operations as well that have popped up. Just fascinating how it's growth so fast. And interestingly some of those have now run their course and closed as well. The concept of an owner/operator really came into existence in the professional space during the RED One era and right after that Arri Alexa era. I would say most of the information and/or tests that came to be during those times were from owner/ops of varying experience levels.

14. Time and quantity. There truly weren't many F65s in the world for instance and anybody who actually owned them were likely a rental house in that specific case. I only used that camera a few times and it was used sparingly. The F55 certainly was a more successful camera for a moment in the heated game of ping pong during the Varicam 35 era. But ARRI and RED dominated that timeframe for professional work, which is clearer now in hindsight, but for a moment if you listened to marketing you couldn't make an image unless you shot with one of those other cameras.

15. Since I'm rapping. Rental houses until fairly recently were/are primarily concerned with renting out more premium priced equipment as the ROI and profits are better short and long term. However, times are WILD right now and don't seem to be getting tamed anytime soon. I'm seeing larger houses buy less expensive cameras and lenses for the first time very, very recently to adapt to the now.

16. Cameras and where people use them. Out here in LA it's mainly three players for professional work currently. ARRI, RED, and Sony. Various cameras really. Canon sporadically pops up here and there, but rarely is pursued for feature, series, or commercial work in practice. C700 was a rough go for them and by the time the C500 MKII came out, a great camera, owners and rental houses weren't enchanted for whatever reason. I've seen more mirrorless cameras or Z-Cams on production than BMD, but I know BMD sells a boatload of cameras. Just don't see them much for lots of reasons. I have yet to see a Kinefinity on set for any production locally, despite them having an LA office now. I do know people who run entire production companies with mirrorless or entry level cameras however. That's a very interesting thing. Most smaller production companies, if successful enough to do it, navigate to higher end systems rather quickly to either enhance their work or pursue a different workflow.

17. Many DPs don't own equipment at all. Though that is not my path as a filmmaker, I know many who shoot small through big work who own nothing. Maybe a DSLR or Mirrorless body occasionally though. As I laughingly chatted with a producer recently, she mentioned she didn't trust DPs who at a minimum don't own and shoot stills. She had some comical stories to backup her perspective.

18. A frightening reality is perhaps ahead of you. People are filming everyday with all of the more common cameras. You'll never know or maybe even see much of that content at this point. People still reach out to me for camera related advice and when I started helping those who shot content that will likely never be something I would ever shoot (churches, celebrity birthdays, weddings, etc.) with very high budgets for equipment due to client base or just being well funded, it changed my mindset on much of this. I pretty much work only in features, exhibition/specialty, and commercial. Rarely live event at all, especially in the last decade. But that only illustrates a few slices of the motion picture pie. A lot of people who reach out to me now are live streamers who want to up their visuals. I just built camera packages for two rather large companies (new internal studio spaces), one of which is a regular client I film for.

19. The good news as it pertains to used gear is a lot of it is still very, very valid in modern workflows. However, you'll notice a lot of yester-years tech isn't invited onto sets and occasionally bleeding edge tech also isn't invited. It's fascinating. Mainly whoever the manufacturer is and based on availability many have to have the gear earn the trust to rely on it for productions. We live in a time of million dollar plus shooting days or just the mindset that all shooting days are critical to your reputation and career. Add into the mix that filmmakers need to gain experience on various systems. Some, like myself, test hard and early. Then it's not an issue to explore bleeding edge tech. Flipside, for instance series, may rely on systems for multiple years and seasons while new gear comes out. SWAT comes to mind when I helped them transfer over to Monstro. It was out for a hot minute and they wanted to up the game visually.

20. Cameras of all sorts are generally commodities with a shelf life of 5-15 years when it comes to professional reliance. This has been a relative constant particularly if you've been handling still and motion cameras along the way. Parts and servicing is impossible after a certain time. Particularly when companies vanish. Add into the mix that we live in a time of product cycles of 1-5 years in most categories now and it gets fascinating as new products arrive sometimes earlier than many would have ever expected. That's tide to industry growth as well as the speed of technological advancement with the added chaos of some things getting less expensive along the way. This is fuel for thought for those of us running production companies, rental houses, and generally a filmmaking business with also some focus towards those who are advanced hobbyists or enthusiasts. Not everybody is passionate about filmmaking in the filmmaking industry, but many did start there at least. It's an ever evolving industry, and in recent years, faster mutations.

 

[Nick Vera]

16. Cameras and where people use them. Out here in LA it's mainly three players for professional work currently. ARRI, RED, and Sony.

I don't want to sugar coat it, but what I have seen is mainly Venice and Arri cameras being rented out by a LARGE margin compared to RED. I feel like the only time I have seen a RED go out is if it's a Panavision DXL system. Which is a shame, because the VV Raptor definitely outperforms the Venice 2 system and DXL in DR and the Frame Rate department. The XL system also has benefits with the E-ND system over the Sony hard stops, though that is also beneficial for other reasons. I feel like the only way for RED to be taken seriously again in the high end market is to have higher end DPs start using them constantly like they do with the Venice or Arri. Granted, I'm not going to say how can you convince them to do that, especially with the ridiculous strong feelings DPs have towards brands.

Though I will say money talks in this industry as you well know.

I just find it dumb that what motivates people to choose a camera brand is the same motivation that people used to buy certain shoe brands based on what their favorite basketball player was using. As if that is what will make their cinematography or movie good.

 

[Phil Holland]

I don't want to sugar coat it, but what I have seen is mainly Venice and Arri cameras being rented out by a LARGE margin compared to RED.

No problem backing that statement. Also no problem saying more people own their REDs than those other two systems, which alludes to this. Just had a deep dive conversation surrounding this topic with two rental houses recently. As I mentioned earlier, rental houses really, really want higher ticket price items. And tied to that is the separation of ownership from a potential rental. There's other layers to that cake too, but don't really need to dive in here.

I have no strong feelings towards brands other than I want them to pursue advancements and improvements in a variety of areas. I think the Venice 2 is fine. For me it's more of a Monstro competitor and that is somewhat revealed rather clearly recently. I'm curious about Sony's next release impacting anything in the Venice world however. Arri has stuff coming that I'm more interested in than the Alexa 35, but I have zero problem saying it's their best Alexa on the market from a usability perspective. Rather enjoy that.

The curious position RED is in really is if they are doing well in regards to camera sales to users, rental houses, production companies, and other avenues - should they pursue a stronger foothold on rental? From my perspective yes. And it's interesting chatting with Arri in here as they do really, really want to pursue a more entry level priced body. They just haven't figured out the best way to do it just yet.

And more of a side note, now that I finally viewed the test myself. I recently attended the HBO Camera Assessment Series. I've done the test myself and know the hardcore answers, but their test was indeed impressive, very high budget, and produced well. The horde in attendance multiple times had audible gasps at how good Raptor footage was. More so when you think about texture and ISO rating. I think for many in attendance that was the first time they saw those side by sides. Even more relevant as HBO themselves highlighted that they are using Alexa 35 as A-Camera on some productions (House of the Dragon being one) with Raptor late day into evening as it allows them to shoot for several more hours confidently.

I'm fine with whatever motivates people to choose system X, Y, or Z. And I'm happy to shoot on anything really. That's why I test. But in terms of ownership and often what I film on the most, I generally will own at least 2 of whatever I land on as the "best camera" out there. That's more or less relative to what I'm doing professionally and creatively. For instance, I don't exactly shoot much in H.265 outside of BTS, but there are many who's camera choice comes down to data rates even. A very relevant pro/con for many, but not something that hits me that way for the work I do.

 

[dio Zafi]

I think I can offer some insight into this specific issue. I see a lot of Leica M cameras sit on eBay for weeks and even months. For some reason, there are some people who think that a Leica M9 is worth AU$7,000. Of course, all it takes is one sucker to buy it, but there seems to be a lack of suckers when it comes to Leica cameras.

People who want Leicas know exactly what they are worth. I would not mind an M9, but it's not worth that much. You can get an M10 for AU$7,000, and even that is too much for an M10! The M9 is not that special and people know it.

The M6 has come down in price recently, thanks to the re-issue by Leica. People are now waiting for a new one rather than buying an overpriced used one. As a result, they are cheaper now than a year ago. I have auction results on record to prove that an M6 cannot command the premium it once did.

The problem with eBay is that people hold out for a high BIN price. Instead, they should start an auction at 99c, and just let it fly. The market is always right, and buyers are not that desperate enough to pay your BIN premium. Sometimes BIN prices are fine, of course.

Same thing with cars. I see some cars sit on websites for months and months. People are very, very precious, and they want top dollar for their goods. These people are not intelligent sellers. Selling a car has one function: to move it out of the way for another one. That's it. You will never recover your costs of running a car, with very rare exceptions. Cars that are priced well do not last long.

I almost bought an Aaton A-Minima once. It was about $2,000 or so. I thought, well, why not? I didn't buy it but I should have. I would have made a nice profit on it.

I bought an arri sr 3 5 years ago I can't believe the price now...(and I use it or rent it out all the time)
(it's like those older porsches you hear about ..at one time they were cheap but now...wow!!!)

 

[Karim D. Ghantous]

I bought an arri sr 3 5 years ago I can't believe the price now...(and I use it or rent it out all the time)
(it's like those older porsches you hear about ..at one time they were cheap but now...wow!!!)

I think even the 435's were going cheap at one point. But now, you're looking at US$20K+ for a kit. That's way more than a lot of superseded Red cameras. And a V-Raptor kit goes for US$35K brand new.

 

[Zack Birlew]

Another example that came to mind of this is the Andromeda 4:4:4 HD Modded Panasonic DVX100 cameras, I was there for the whole movement, a lot of folks bought that mod and there were many pickups and resales after that. Granted, an HVX200 basically got you 90-percent of the way there but to find one now, I even made a thread asking about it some time ago, it's basically impossible and for all anybody knows, whether it was losing the software disc, not having a compatible computer anymore, or not wanting to deal with the hassle of tethered recording, there could have been Andromeda modded DVX100s that got sold around to people who didn't know what they were buying or people who didn't realize they were selling their Andromeda HD modded DVX100s to the point that they're lost to the masses of other DVX100s or have simply been junked at some point. Who knows?

Speaking of which, one rarity of singular note is the demo unit of the HVX200 "Hydra 2K" modded camera that I remember was sold to someone for $5,000 or so when HVX200s were much cheaper than that and despite having the Hydra SDI connector, it was essentially just a mockup out of a functional HVX200 to show what the mod would look like as it wasn't final modded hardware before Reel Stream got bought out. In that instance, I wouldn't expect to ever find that Hydra HVX200 again as it was a one of a kind unit and who knows who it was sold to or where. However, there are many other cameras and other film equipment sold en masse that shouldn't be so rare by any circumstances.

 

[Stuart Hooper]

It sort of feels like the 'DSLR Revolution' and even slightly before that with DVX100s and HV30s and EX1s and 35mm adapters held a lot of promise but was also very diy and mod-y and there was a lot of information being discovered and shared and hacks and all of that to get the most out of the gear and perhaps approximate some higher lever of quality. And in the process some great films were made and a community was born.

I feel like as the years wore on, though, the cameras got better, the support ecosystem got bigger and the need for as much modding and knowledge share got a bit less and then also not *that* many films were made and of course the whole industry has changed but not necessarily from the bottom up because of accessible tech. So some people moved up and got into the 'real' business or started production companies or whatever and got into different levels of gear and that gear is so good now that it doesn't matter anymore. Established gear tends to have established workflows too, and people are busy, so perhaps there is less conversation about it. And then the internet is getting funkier, forums eroding and facebook groups becoming exhausting, so maybe it's all a mix.

I just shot a $400,000 feature on S1Hs and S1s going out to 5.9k raw and I can't even get Panasonic to respond to an email. I've got some stories, but I'm not sure anyone really cares. Most people wouldn't do it that way if they had an alternative. I took a long hard look at Komodo, and I'd consider VRaptor or a Vencie for the next one, but I may end up doing something similar to this one because it really worked. And maybe because there is something about having the DSLRS I would have killed for in 2009 in my hand now, I'm not sure. In taking that look though, I found more review material than I ever found for anything in 2012, and of course forum discussions here as well. So it depends, but there is a lot of info out there.

I see the Varicam LT and the Alexa Classic and the F55 at all these low prices and I kind of get excited by that, too, but never pull the trigger because I think for what I'm doing that probably isn't the path. There are a few people tinkering with those old machines and making YouTube videos about it, but in much smaller quantities than something like the photo community playing around with old leicas. There probably just aren't that many cameras or that many people with a use case. It does feel like funky old video and VHS is making a comeback in some circles...we recently had good experiences with that community in LA and made VHSes of the feature and what not. I'm not going to get a VHS camera anytime soon, though, haha. I think we'll see more motion picture film knowledge discussed and shared as much as it is on the stills side of things soon. You guys mentioned camera prices spiking above, that tracks.

Maybe it was just a moment in time and things are a bit different, now. I still check Reduser, DVXuser, Personal-view and EOSHD and it's all pretty quiet. Newsshooter and CineD give us constant fantastic reviews of every piece of gear coming out, however and some YouTubers dive deep on cool tech and some go for the nostalgic stuff, too. Phillip Bloom makes a video now and then. Zacuto is quiet and the quality has gone down. The Cheesycam guy makes DIY solar batteries now. Makes sense...who needs another DIY camera rig? There is more knowledge out there now on filming and post than there ever was. Vintage lenes, anamorphics...lots of content now to consume without needing to discuss on forums. And I bet tik-tok is a whole iPhone filmmaking revolution that I've never seen.