Buying a Monstro now?

[Matthias ashford]

Hi all. Looking for some thoughts on buying a Monstro now with Raptor Xl on the horizon. I’ve just returned my V-raptor as I wasn’t happy with-
*senor issues
*fan noise
*boot time
*lack of accessories
*rental value/long term investment value
*laggy monitor
*timecode functionality

I’m after a large format camera to shoot high end fiction and commercials (mainly beauty/skincare products).I don’t need high frame rates. Could Monstro be a good solution? Found body only (a few accessories but no monitor or media) for around £20k (British pounds). Seem like fair value?

 

[Giles Harvey]

Did the same with Raptor. I have had Monstro since release and it is very stable and has all the accessories to make it a killer camera. I think if you shop around you will get a better deal on the used market. I was offered joke money when I was going to sell. Defo hanging onto this camera now. Side by side the Monstro more than competes and has a decent VF - no brainer

 

[Matthias ashford]

Thanks. What kind of hours is ok for a used one of these?

 

[Giles Harvey]

Hours are less important than overall condition for me. 1000 hrs wouldn't be off putting.

 

[Patrick Tresch]

I have mine for sell. But would be bothered to know what to buy to replace it.

 

[Andrew Reese]

I have mine for sell. But would be bothered to know what to buy to replace it.

Only competitor or potential upgrade for a Monstro is Mini LF / or a Raptor unfortunately, purely in terms of resolution, frame-rates and overall quality of digital acquisition.

A bunch of folks are dumping DSCM2 to jump into DSCM3 out of FOMO. However, In my opinion, DSCM2 is still greatly functional considering the lack of available Raptor accessory support for many crucial things (i.e. LWS rod support, solid locking EF/PL mounts, cages, top handles / grips, EVF, proper timecode cables and accessories, follow focus cables, rec/trigger functionality, available media, AB battery support, etc. ) not mentioning any split sensor issues, which may present themselves.

I almost sold my DSMC2 Gemini out of FOMO but glad I didn't. Yes, prices are tanking for DSCM2, which is a fear and driver for a lot of us to sell, but you have to ask yourself, are those with V-Raptor really doing anything that your DSCM2 can't do? Most Raptors I am seeing in the wild are running RF glass and in my neck of the woods its still Gemini and Alexa Mini most predominately seen on jobs and I have yet to see a V-Raptor at my local rental house. Most productions in my area don't even require 8k acquisition and if they have particular requests its for Arri not RED.

Some need reliable solutions for running large lenses securely (EF/PL) interchangeably, with support for timecode, lemo, rec, sync. etc. all at the same time. Throw in a liking or need for AB batteries and you basically pushed yourself out of the Raptor ecosystem at least for another 6-months to 1-year after release for parts and add-on's to become available until you can have a functioning camera. I am waiting for Raptor XL for this reason.

I had enough issues tooling up my Komodo over a period of 6-8 months after purchase to get back-ordered or "yet to be released parts" in order for it to function like a proper A-cam and I am afraid it would be very much the same situation with Raptor. Until then... I am sticking with what works DSCM2 and the old motto "if it ain't broke it doesn't need fixed". If your clients aren't requesting 8k/120fps maybe you don't need a new camera.... Monstro is still a great sensor

 

[Sergio Perez]

I'm in a different situation. I have both Monstro and Raptor but financially I just cant live with both from what I do. Personally like Monstro's image for whatever reason, and the whole familiarity with workflow, performance, support gear, etc. Yet time goes forward and selling my Monstro would make me at least have financial means to purchase support/lenses.

Am trying to figure out how much people would pay for a CF Monstro 850 hours body (400 hours monstro sensor, 400 hours helium before upgrade). V mount adaptor, 7" Touch CF edition, XL module, 4x XL batteries, Expander module, Two OLPF, both EF and PL mounts (aluminium).

 

[Giles Harvey]

Hello Sergio,

I was offered around £15k for my lower hours and more extras than that Monstro by multiple places here in the UK. I too cannot have both cameras but as the Raptor is not ready for the varied work I do in the form its in (And with the slow roll out of Komodo updates etc who knows how long that will take). Monstro is where I'm staying. This camera will be good for a couple more years and I have now adopted the 'run it into the ground' business model especially without an upgrade plan. I will then have saved the money to go in any direction that suits my camera needs then. In my opinion selling Monstro now is not good timing. I believe there will be a bounce or at least a levelling off once Raptor finds its market. I have full confidence in Monstro and its proven on so many shoots that it is a tough act to follow.

Just my humble opinion all the above. Everyone has different needs/expectations from their camera so it becomes a very personal journey.

 

[Mike P.]

Well, if Canon releases an 8k/60p FF35 raw camera for ~$5k on Wednesday, I don't see a bounce back happening for Monstro.

Spending ~£20k for a used warranty-less camera (warranties aren't transferable), when a Raptor is $24k new (which is cheaper than £20k) and uses cheaper/non-proprietary media, has AF, has a shallower flange distance to support more lenses (including inexpensive anamorphics, and/or internal ND adapters), has double the frame rate, less rolling shutter, etc, seems like a bad idea. If Raptop didn't float your boat, I'm not sure Monstro will, and it only makes sense to go Monstro if it's a super aggressive price (hence £12/$15k)...

What about Sony? FX9/FX6 are full-frame, have (external) raw, are comparatively inexpensive, and don't suffer any of the problems you had with Raptor. They also hold their resale value at least as well as RED, so you could sell it without taking too big of a hit when something better comes out.

 

[Patrick Tresch]

Well, if Canon releases an 8k/60p FF35 raw camera for ~$5k on Wednesday, I don't see a bounce back happening for Monstro.

Spending ~£20k for a used warranty-less camera (warranties aren't transferable), when a Raptor is $24k new (which is cheaper than £20k) and uses cheaper/non-proprietary media, has AF, has a shallower flange distance to support more lenses (including inexpensive anamorphics, and/or internal ND adapters), has double the frame rate, less rolling shutter, etc, seems like a bad idea. If Raptop didn't float your boat, I'm not sure Monstro will, and it only makes sense to go Monstro if it's a super aggressive price (hence £12/$15k)...

What about Sony? FX9/FX6 are full-frame, have (external) raw, are comparatively inexpensive, and don't suffer any of the problems you had with Raptor. They also hold their resale value at least as well as RED, so you could sell it without taking too big of a hit when something better comes out.

Your arguments are all walid. I still love the versatility of the Monstro (1:3 to 1:20 codec...). The image dosen't have the baked in look (or a baked in look that I do prefer) than other manufacturers.
It's a solid beast. I'll wait until Red releases a "more professional" camera that has more features (like user buttons at the front -) ) OLPF (I've got used to it). And the new Blue camera will be sooo huge that it's kind of a joke.

 

[Taylor Morrison]

I will have my Monstro up for sale in the NY area soon. It's got some hours on it and I have a boatload of accessories for it. 20k ish I should have it up in the Red gear for sale area later this week . Monstro is the deal but the Raptor is small and light and works well enough for what I need. I like both cameras as they get the job done.

Monstro is way better for studio and commercial work. The mount is so much more solid. I'm hesitant to put anything of much weight on the Raptor without support. Setting support takes time and I often don't have it on the shoot, so small lenses it is. I've just added the Kameleon EVF to my Raptor...works well enough but the fan fizzed out after the 3rd day. Colors are way off now. So that goes back and I'm with out EVF again. Never had any issue with the Red EVF on Monstro though.

It's really a choice of what tool works best for you I think.

Best

 

[Matthias ashford]

Well, if Canon releases an 8k/60p FF35 raw camera for ~$5k on Wednesday, I don't see a bounce back happening for Monstro.

Spending ~£20k for a used warranty-less camera (warranties aren't transferable), when a Raptor is $24k new (which is cheaper than £20k) and uses cheaper/non-proprietary media, has AF, has a shallower flange distance to support more lenses (including inexpensive anamorphics, and/or internal ND adapters), has double the frame rate, less rolling shutter, etc, seems like a bad idea. If Raptop didn't float your boat, I'm not sure Monstro will, and it only makes sense to go Monstro if it's a super aggressive price (hence £12/$15k)...

What about Sony? FX9/FX6 are full-frame, have (external) raw, are comparatively inexpensive, and don't suffer any of the problems you had with Raptor. They also hold their resale value at least as well as RED, so you could sell it without taking too big of a hit when something better comes out.

Thanks for your comments. From what I've heard the Monstro sensor is still better than the Raptor sensor, physically I mean so no updates will change this. The colors are more accurate with Monstro. Of course, the Raptor is better in other ways but it's not ready to shoot now- Maybe in 6 months? Right now there are too many issues with it and a lack of accessories, making it unusable professionally. It seems that a fully kitted out Monstro for around £20k ($30k) is a very good option, would you all agree? Mini LF is of course superior in many ways but is £70k. Sony Venice is incredible but £60k, and huge!

Sony FX-9/FX-6 are definitely not in the same league as Monstro/Raptor, are they?? Assume you are not serious...... Doesn't matter if you get raw if the sensor is not good in the first place. I believe my Canon c300 mk3 has better colour science than the FX-9/FX-6 (FX-6 is just an A&s sensor in a bigger body). I need something for high-end commercial work and fiction.

 

[Sergio Perez]

Yeah I have to say, an this is very, very subjective, I like the Monstro sensor output better compared to raptor.

 

[Andrew Reese]

I am going to throw a wrench into the convo and ask has anyone heard any updates on the new s35 Arri cam that was supposed to come out last year prior to covid? It has been nothing but silence. Remember... the updated high-resolution S35 Alexa Mini 2 we shall call it? Imagine a 6k or 8k Mini with better frame rates... I've been waiting and waiting and waiting...

 

[M Harvey]

I am going to throw a wrench into the convo and ask has anyone heard any updates on the new s35 Arri cam that was supposed to come out last year prior to covid? It has been nothing but silence. Remember... the updated high-resolution S35 Alexa Mini 2 we shall call it? Imagine a 6k or 8k Mini with better frame rates... I've been waiting and waiting and waiting...

All of the reporting I've seen on the forthcoming s35 Alexa refer to it as a 4k camera. Here's a recent interview in FD Times with an Arri product manager where he confirms a 16:9 mode that delivers DCI 4k. They note, however, that it has an open gate mode-- but I doubt that'd deliver 6k+. No idea on frame rates, but I'm sure there's plenty of rumors out there.

 

[Scot Yount]

Only competitor or potential upgrade for a Monstro is Mini LF / or a Raptor unfortunately, purely in terms of resolution, frame-rates and overall quality of digital acquisition.

A bunch of folks are dumping DSCM2 to jump into DSCM3 out of FOMO. However, In my opinion, DSCM2 is still greatly functional considering the lack of available Raptor accessory support for many crucial things (i.e. LWS rod support, solid locking EF/PL mounts, cages, top handles / grips, EVF, proper timecode cables and accessories, follow focus cables, rec/trigger functionality, available media, AB battery support, etc. ) not mentioning any split sensor issues, which may present themselves.

I almost sold my DSMC2 Gemini out of FOMO but glad I didn't. Yes, prices are tanking for DSCM2, which is a fear and driver for a lot of us to sell, but you have to ask yourself, are those with V-Raptor really doing anything that your DSCM2 can't do? Most Raptors I am seeing in the wild are running RF glass and in my neck of the woods its still Gemini and Alexa Mini most predominately seen on jobs and I have yet to see a V-Raptor at my local rental house. Most productions in my area don't even require 8k acquisition and if they have particular requests its for Arri not RED.

Some need reliable solutions for running large lenses securely (EF/PL) interchangeably, with support for timecode, lemo, rec, sync. etc. all at the same time. Throw in a liking or need for AB batteries and you basically pushed yourself out of the Raptor ecosystem at least for another 6-months to 1-year after release for parts and add-on's to become available until you can have a functioning camera. I am waiting for Raptor XL for this reason.

I had enough issues tooling up my Komodo over a period of 6-8 months after purchase to get back-ordered or "yet to be released parts" in order for it to function like a proper A-cam and I am afraid it would be very much the same situation with Raptor. Until then... I am sticking with what works DSCM2 and the old motto "if it ain't broke it doesn't need fixed". If your clients aren't requesting 8k/120fps maybe you don't need a new camera.... Monstro is still a great sensor

Very much agree on all fronts.

 

[Andrew Reese]

All of the reporting I've seen on the forthcoming s35 Alexa refer to it as a 4k camera. Here's a recent interview in FD Times with an Arri product manager where he confirms a 16:9 mode that delivers DCI 4k. They note, however, that it has an open gate mode-- but I doubt that'd deliver 6k+. No idea on frame rates, but I'm sure there's plenty of rumors out there.

I knew it was originally supposed to be a "4k camera"..... but those original posts by Arri are now approaching 1-2 years old and I would both think and hope the delay has something to do with the fact that so many affordable and capable 6-8k resolution cameras that can shoot raw internally have arrived in the market in that timeframe for costs cheaper than ever before. I know the lower end sector of the industry (sub - $25k cameras) is typically not Arri's primary market, but we all have to be honest and recognize that I am sure the development and growth of the mirrorless and affordable cinema camera market had to hurt both individual sales and rentals of RED and Arri cameras and probably even Sony and Canon have even felt some degree of their own cannibalization with their A7 and R5 line, which had to hurt some sales of their cinema lineup.

Why rent a 6-year old Alexa Mini for $1200 a day (unless client demands it), when your agency can own two R5C's or a Komodo kit for around $8k? A few 2-3 day shoots with a mini and you bought yourself a Komodo (6k S35 Raw Camera with Global Shutter)....Why purchase a used Alexa Mini for $30k when you could own 4 Komodo's or a V-Raptor (8K/120fps VV Raw)? In today's marketplace I believe other cameras have come "close enough" to offering similar levels of color fidelity, dynamic range, quality of codec, and significantly improved frame rates for a fraction of the Arri cost. A new "4k only" variant of the existing S35 Alexa mini sensor would offer very little to that over the existing Alexa Mini @ 3.5k resolution and the slew of fairly priced competitors (i.e. V-Raptor, V-Raptor XL, Venice 8k, FX9/FX6/FX3 (Raw over HDMI now), R5C / C70 (Raw internal), UMP12K / BMP6K pro, even the Nikon Z9, many of which also offer Pro-Res.

Consider the prospective price point for an Alexa Mini 2 whatever it may become (+/- $35-60k I would assume)? That puts many camera platforms as direct competitors in the same price point, in which V-Raptor or V-Raptor XL would be looking pretty good with a VV sensor (still shoots S35 too), 8K raw recording, frame rates never seen before on an affordable high dynamic range internal raw camera, fast sensor read out (no rolling shutter), very small size and form factor considering performance, flexibility of RF mount, autofocus, Red Control App (wireless monitoring & controls), etc. and even DCT raw compression, (I am still a fan of Wavelet) but it does make processing RAW easier for the majority on lower end computers.

As an owner/operator, the only thing I would have to gain with a new "4k variant" of the Alexa Mini 2 over current competitors in that prospective price range would maybe be some extra recognition due to the Arri badge, a higher recoupable rental cost in theory, and some extra highlight protection, which shouldn't have any benefit to jobs that are properly lit. I would assume low-light performance to be on par with current Arri sensors, which has never been stellar and I would assume there will be no magnificent jump in available frame rates considering Arri's stronghold or narrative filming and limited interest in action sports or nature docs.

IMO, to bring out an "S35 Alexa Mini 2" it would have to do something the current Alexa Mini can't do and "4k resolution" isn't that big of a jump to nock off the current Mini (3.5k res), which is still being used a ton on jobs in my area at a price more affordable than ever before. If anything the original Alexa Mini would become even more of a "steal to purchase" if upgrading to a "Mini 2" only meant a slight bump in resolution....

In my opinion the "Mini 2" will have to offer at least 6k-8K resolution at or around 48-60fps to be relevant considering the 8k / 4K delivery landscape which we all know is coming. A ($30-60k) priced high-resolution version of an Alexa Mini sensor with decent frame rates and the same high DR performance and color fidelity would break the industry and really put Arri back at the forefront of the 8k emerging landscape.

Obviously this is just my opinion, but I think it will be interesting to see how Arri approaches high-resolution acquisition as every other manufacture seems to be focusing on it.... It hasn't been their game yet but at some point they have to recognize it is where the world seems to be going...

 

[M Harvey]

..... but those original posts by Arri are now approaching 1-2 years old

The interview with the Arri product manager was from late October 2021, so pretty current information. But there certainly could be surprises as to resolution, and I'd bet the camera will have pretty good high frame rate capabilities.

Your analysis is well supported, but it seems to me that the high end marketplace still gives Arri its own lane-- I don't see today's customers for multi-day Mini rentals purchasing Komodos/R5C/Blackmagic 6k any time soon. (And I say that as a Komodo owner who has nonetheless rented Minis!)

I think the 4k Mini is mostly about going after the market the Alexa hasn't had, which is content that must deliver in 4k (e.g. Netflix originating productions).

 

[Andrew Reese]

The interview with the Arri product manager was from late October 2021, so pretty current information. But there certainly could be surprises as to resolution, and I'd bet the camera will have pretty good high frame rate capabilities.

Your analysis is well supported, but it seems to me that the high end marketplace still gives Arri its own lane-- I don't see today's customers for multi-day Mini rentals purchasing Komodos/R5C/Blackmagic 6k any time soon. (And I say that as a Komodo owner who has nonetheless rented Minis!)

I think the 4k Mini is mostly about going after the market the Alexa hasn't had, which is content that must deliver in 4k (e.g. Netflix originating productions).

[/QUOTE

The market for 4k Netflix productions I would assume is perfectly happy with the Mini LF considering Arri added a S35 mode for that camera. I still am not seeing a huge need for a "4K ONLY" S35 mini when the Mini LF already basically does that and has taken over most all big productions already. The rental price between a newly released 4K S35 Mini 2 and Mini LF would be damn near the same considering the Mini LF isn't new, so again I just don't see where it fits on productions when you could just use the Mini LF... Honestly the regular S35 mini is still going so strong for everybody else and their brother not shooting for Netflix so it just seems like a hell of a lot of R&D, time, and cost on behalf of Arri for very little to gain in sales outside of 4k only Netflix productions (still could use Mini LF) and rental houses that feel like they need to get on the band-wagon... Are smaller rental houses really going to dump several of their Minis to get a few Mini 2's just for a small bump in resolution? Most rentals aren't selling to Netflix productions they are selling to production agencies who may value a higher resolution option, which would level out that segmented market place with Arri now more in line with higher resolution crowd of Monstro, V-Raptor, UMP12K and Venice 6k/8k etc. If Arri pushes the frame rates as well, I see very much the same affect as many only use RED because it really is the only option for 6-8k acquisition and HFR shooting....I see the market need being much smaller for 4k Netflix productions than the market shift towards the adoption of 6-8k acquisition for oversampling on 4k delivery. I still really think, and HOPE we will see at least a 5-6k resolution and maybe even 8k resolution sensor option from Arri at some point in the next 1-3 years. You have to admit it surely would shake up an industry, in which all current marketing seems to be going towards 8K (RED, Canon, Sony). All I can say is the industry could be changed overnight if Arri would release a 6-8k camera with the same level of image quality as their current line-up and a form factor and price point close to the current Mini.

 

[Nick Morrison]

I think Arri and RED both have more to worry about from Sony, which is starting to win over lots of converts with the Sony Venice, which by all accounts is doing better than the Alexa Mini LF.