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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Cineform 4K solution?

$0.02

$0.02

David Newman said:
We are working ideas for other interesting workflows.
Click to expand...

David,

I'd like to suggest another "interesting" workflow. Granted, you may have already thought of this, but here goes...

What about utilizing the RAWPORT to pipe an uncompressed signal to an external recorder that would do realtime compression into the Cineform codec?

It would work similarly to the Wafian products.

Of course, it would be ideal if such a device could be mounted into the handheld configuration of the Red One, perhaps taking the place of the Red Drive. But, I understand this may be asking too much at the present time.

Anyway, I figured it couldn't hurt to make the suggestion.

If such a device/product could in fact be made (or if you just want to guage interest), put me down for reservation 00001.

-Thor Wixom
 
David Newman said:
Thor,

We are very much interested in doing just that. We were saddened to see the RAW Port wasn't standard and rather pricy, but we do understand that anyone using this port is after a premium image, and that we can support.
Click to expand...

David,

If Red chooses to not support Cineform natively, that would be the ideal solution. It would be like a mini-Wafian HR-2.

Please keep me informed about the progress of such a device.

I am very serious about aquiring one if it becomes available.

Thanks (as always) for the correspondence.

-Thor Wixom
 
David,

Would it be possible to record CineForm 444 from the RAWPORT to a unit that would be roughly comparable in size to the Red Drive?

On your site, it mentioned that a 2 hour feature encoded to CineForm 444 can be stored on a 350GB hard drive. With two 200GB 2.5" drives in a raid 0, 2 hours of footage should be attainable at the full 12 bit 4:4:4.

The form factor could be reduced in size (compared to current Wafian models) by using the camera's LCD and VF to access onscreen menus. A proprietary cable with a small switch could be made to toggle back and forth between the OSMs and what the camera is seeing.

Sorry if I'm being captain obvious here, I'm just really excited about shooting natively to a format that I can drop right in to my Premiere timeline with no compromises in quality or workflow.

-Thor Wixom
 
CineForm 444 is really intended for a developed three channel RGB image, whereas the RAWPORT, carries RAW. Compressing RAW is magical thing as it delays the compute of the demosaic until you really need it, as significant compression ratios (5-8:1 typical.) So a mobile CineForm 444 recorder would be ideal for Viper and Genesis, RED would be best fitted with a CineForm RAW record module -- some pedigree of codec, optimized for the native chroma format.
 
David Newman said:
CineForm 444 is really intended for a developed three channel RGB image, whereas the RAWPORT, carries RAW. Compressing RAW is magical thing as it delays the compute of the demosaic until you really need it, as significant compression ratios (5-8:1 typical.) So a mobile CineForm 444 recorder would be ideal for Viper and Genesis, RED would be best fitted with a CineForm RAW record module -- some pedigree of codec, optimized for the native chroma format.
Click to expand...

David,

That makes sense.

I just hope that the signal can remain 12 bit, and be recorded to a unit that fits neatly into the shoulder mount configuration of the Red One.

I'll refrain now from being an armchair engineer, and leave this in the capable hands of the experts and professionals.

Thanks for answering my questions, and please keep me updated in the coming months if it looks like this type of unit will become a reality.

-Thor Wixom
 
"I just hope that the signal can remain 12 bit,"

Yes, the dynamic range of 12-bit is preserved, however we find that 10/12-bit log encoding produces much better shadow detail performance through the compression stage. I hope you don't mean to tie one hand behind our back with a request for linear encoding. ;) We do log curves for all linear RAW sources, this is another area where Red own compression and CineForm RAW differ significantly. We re-linearize the data as needed by downstream applications. I plan to write up on my blog the linear vs log thing, and how it effects lossy (anything more than 2:1) compression -- I just need to find the time.
 
David Newman said:
"I plan to write up on my blog the linear vs log thing, and how it effects lossy (anything more than 2:1) compression -- I just need to find the time.
Click to expand...

That would make for some very interesting reading. Please do post a link to this if you get around to writing on the subject.
 
David Newman said:
"I just hope that the signal can remain 12 bit,"

Yes, the dynamic range of 12-bit is preserved, however we find that 10/12-bit log encoding produces much better shadow detail performance through the compression stage. I hope you don't mean to tie one hand behind our back with a request for linear encoding. ;)
Click to expand...

David,

Yes, I mean the dynamic range of 12-bit.

I want to understand how codecs and compression work, especially in relation to RAW data. Hopefully, you'll have time to write further about it. Until then, I'm satisfied to know that whatever solution you come up with will be comparable (better) than the other options.

As long as it shoots on the Red, edits in Premiere, and looks incredible all the way to the silver screen, I will be a happy customer!

-Thor
 
I expect David, will be able to do his magic in time.
 
A larger suggestion David

A larger suggestion David

David, as you may already be aware, MOTU has an interesting product in the V3HD. In fact, it could be argued that they are superior in many ways to the AJA IOHD.

The support BOTH mac and windows
The have more inputs and outputs
They can monitor full surround audio

Their weak point is the codec they have chosen: They have chosen DVCproHD as their hardware supported Codec. Youch.

This looks like a very good opportunity for Cineform. You could be V3HD's answer to pro-res.

By the way I was dissappoint to find when I went to your website there was no way to call you. The site has been designed to be "firewalled" against personal contact. Something I am not thrilled about when paying $2,000 for software. It's possible the phone number is there, but it was hard, or impossible to find.

Jay
 
Jay,

Click on contact "About CineForm" in the main nav bar. Our phone numbers are there. Our web-site sucks, yes, but we are a least trying to give you contact information. :)

Ping on MOTU and request CineForm support. Yes, it is a very good idea.
 
David Newman said:
Jay,

Click on contact "About CineForm" in the main nav bar. Our phone numbers are there. Our web-site sucks, yes, but we are a least trying to give you contact information. :)

Ping on MOTU and request CineForm support. Yes, it is a very good idea.
Click to expand...

I spoke with them today and invited them to REDUser.net letting them know there is a decent sized market for them here.. I worry I spoke to a sales person (But he was good) and he may not know the value of these boards.

I do not know if I will buy this system, but it seems to be at least as impressive as AJA's product. The main downfall is that the system supports FireWire800 and to my knowlege Windows does not

Jay
 
you can contact both Davids via cell or email ...if they let you..

Thanks Davids...

and Motu is on my radar if you can put CineForm on chip
 
Windows FW800 Support

Windows FW800 Support

Jay A. Kelley said:
I spoke with them today and invited them to REDUser.net letting them know there is a decent sized market for them here.. I worry I spoke to a sales person (But he was good) and he may not know the value of these boards.

I do not know if I will buy this system, but it seems to be at least as impressive as AJA's product. The main downfall is that the system supports FireWire800 and to my knowlege Windows does not

Jay
Click to expand...

Windows fully supports Firewire800 as far as I know. I have FW800 cards and drives, and get performance increases. If any features of IEEE1394b are not supported on Windows, I would sure like to know.
 
from my experience looking into 1394b ... windows XP SP1 kind of supported it ... then came SP2 and pretty much put 1394B the same speed as 1394A ..
then after complaints Microsoft put out a patch to sort of fix it ...
i have a XP SP1 and it is much faster then my XP SP2 ( with patch) machines using 1394B -we are talking 2X as fast write speeds .. reads speeds are approx 25%faster on Sp1 .... some 1394B pci/pmcia card manufacturers include speacial drivers - somebody had tested all 3 - XP SP1 , XP SP2 , and two 3rd party drivers .. the results were XP SP 1 was the fastest, next was the 3rd party drivers and last was XP SP2 ( with patch) ... microsoft has stated they do not support 1394b - google it to get there reasons ...
 
David, do you guys at cineform have any way to actually view full 4K footage? 4K Projector?

As far as I know 4K LCDs don't exist yet.
 
Tom said:
David, do you guys at cineform have any way to actually view full 4K footage? 4K Projector?

As far as I know 4K LCDs don't exist yet.
Click to expand...

Dell, Sharp, Westinghouse...moore's ect.
All working on one...
 
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