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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

720P and 1080P... losers

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Columbus said:
So at present on board recording options are:
for 35mm dof
4K raw(max 30fps)
scaled 1080p redcode rgb(max 60fps)
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I possibly did not understand that format options chart (I still find it extremely confusing), but if we can get a 1080p scaled image (from 4K) onboard in camera at 60p, then I will retract my previous statement and would definitely keep 1080 as a recording option. I don't understand how the camera can take a 4K image AND downscale it to 1080 for storage 60 times a second but not just store 60 4K images per second, but having the faster framerates, in 35mm DOF, as an oversampled 1080 RGB image could be very helpful for faster turnarounds. It's the windowed part of the debate (which is the only place the 96fps or 120fps numbers are coming from) that, for my needs, won't prove to be very useful.
 
Lowkus said:
My projects are likely to go Straight to DVD. For that media, 2k is no better than 720p.
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This is a common misconception, but I'm glad you brought it up. Oversampled 2K will look much nicer than shooting in SD or even 720 for your DVD release. It's the reason 35mm footage still looks much nicer than, say, DVX footage does even when they're both presented on a standard def DVD. Oversampling will also help reduce noise and improve sensitivity. There are definitely benefits to acquiring a larger image even if you're shrinking down to a deliverable.

Lowkus said:
Also, 720p won't consume as much storage space, allowing for longer shoots without as many media swaps.
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This depends - 720 is only available as RGB, whereas 2K is available RAW. Since RAW is about a third of the size of comparable RGB data at the same resolution, you're likely to have just as much room on your cards shooting the 2K RAW as you are with 720p RGB (maybe more? I would have to do the math...).

You are right about the frame rates... there isn't an acceptable replacement for that. But just keep in mind that you are giving things up in order to get it.
 
I think recording these formats is a waste of time.
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I think too!
720P RGB for sure
I've alwais wondered why this format was included in the project!

I'd save the 1080P RGB joust because it's coming out of the full sensor with 60fps like the cropped 2K
 
Jannard said:
Not saying we can, but if we could deliver 120fps at 2K, would you change you mind? Just thinking out loud here. Don't write this down in your journals.

Jim
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YES YES YES
All those multi-shmulti-core need to be finally used; THen give it to them.
I think it is a waste of time and money to invest in other formats when you get the ultimate...(4K-2K selective frame rate)
F...the 720p, it was a poor excuse to be called HD in a first place.

Albert
www.yayofilms.com
 
in other hand... as a marketing thing, remember that most of the dumb-red-haters are going to say if they change from 120fps to 96fps... even explaining the difference they will use it as a fault.
 
Feels like I've spent all morning reading these posts! Thanks to Gibby for presenting the other side of the argument so eloquently. I've got to pipe in here and say a couple of things about legacy.

I'm all for shooting as high a rez as possible. But Im also for a tool that will adapt itself to as many current and future work environments as possible. And that is the beauty of what I saw in the specs of the RED ONE.

If Apple turned around tomorrow and said "hey, we've decided to scrap anything below 2K in FCS because those formats will be obselete in the FUTURE" you would be crushed in the stampede of editors trying to strangle Steve Jobs. Why? Because in the real world editors need to be able to access, input and output many different resolutions and standards depending on the needs of their clients.
My point is that we will be dealing with the legacy of decades of SD shot programs and now HD shot programs and we're going to be mixing them up for years to come. And that is because of a thing called industry standards. I don't make them, and a lot of them give me the shits*, but i have to abide by them or else my job is for naught. Please don't hobble the camera just yet. I do understand the arguments for ditching 720 and 1080 but I honestly believe that many of us who do actually make our livings from cameras will see this as a backwards step in the this very transitional period of multi-resolutions we are currently in. I long for the day when this is not an issue and we can all shoot 4K and beyond to our hearts content - but this is not the reality of the industry as it currently stands. Yes I want the Swiss Army Knife of cameras - it's the right tool for the current production environment.

Cheers

Cam

*if i ever meet the dude who came up with 1080i instead of 1080p as the HiDef standard I will personally ram a HiDef CRT monitor where the sun don't shine. It was a chance to get rid of evil interlacing from here on in and so they drop the ball. Well done - I hope you read this! BASTARD!! And while where at it, to the dude who came up with blah blah blah....(voice trails of as men in white coats administer my medication!)
 
ozcam said:
*if i ever meet the dude who came up with 1080i instead of 1080p as the HiDef standard I will personally ram a HiDef CRT monitor where the sun don't shine.
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Haha, I think you'd have plenty of support for that one... :bleh:
 
The post/conversion time issue was one I brought up way back at the beginning of the thread. If it's realtime or better to down convert to 1080p or 720p then there is no decision, as far as I'm concerned, because you have to offload your drive footage anyway, so it;s a wash.
 
it would be useful to have some idea of conversions times from 2K/4K to downrezzed 1080p before making this call. it's all been said by now, but please keep at least one broadcast standard, to keep conversion times at a minimum. most of my deliverables will be TV or DVD, and the delivery systems clearly have a way to go before they catch up to what this camera can do.
 
I have not had time today to respond but I have been Reading the thred all day. I would have to say that the work flow we have had since day on is to shoot only at 2K/4K and 4K most of the time. As for the frame rate. I'll take 96fps right now. I think the HD formats are a waist of space. Remeber that we have REDCine 4K to anything even HD. So that is jus my two cents
 
Keith Nealy said:
The post/conversion time issue was one I brought up way back at the beginning of the thread. If it's realtime or better to down convert to 1080p or 720p then there is no decision, as far as I'm concerned, because you have to offload your drive footage anyway, so it;s a wash.
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And what factors go into establishing a standard "conversion time"? I would think an 8 core MAC Pro will yield better results than a Dual Core system... lots of things to consider.

But will someone from RED please chime in about the possibility of letting the user choose their own preferred formats/frame rates by use of Firmware flashes??? :huh: If this is possible, then we wouldn't have to lose one or the other.
 
Keith Nealy said:
The post/conversion time issue was one I brought up way back at the beginning of the thread. If it's realtime or better to down convert to 1080p or 720p then there is no decision, as far as I'm concerned, because you have to offload your drive footage anyway, so it;s a wash.
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I agree with this argument but I think it's wishful thinking. I also doubt we will have these numbers until LART.

IBloom
 
ibloom said:
I agree with this argument but I think it's wishful thinking. I also doubt we will have these numbers until LART.

IBloom
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Well, I am debating whether or not to ship my new quad core mac to the LART so I can do a quick turn around on getting some info back to redusers here asap. But now, I really want to ship it out so I can get exact numbers using my own machine. Would anyone be interested in that?
 
Hi all,
Interesting posts here from Jim at the begining of this thread.
I've tried to read something into them.
Maybe Red no longer needs to fill the 720p/1080p gap.
As an example Panasonic's HPX500 seems to be a good camera
with pricing competitive to that of Red in this area.
If Jim jump's out of this area watch the pannie prices double.
Maybe what wer'e seeing here today is the begining of Red
trying to reposition itself in the market place as a higher end
product offering 2/4k only with 0-96 fps framerates.
Sexy stuff.
While this is great for people intent on making feature films for
theatricial release it leaves one hell of a lot of others out in cold.
There could be an opportunity here for other camera makers
to eat away at Red's hard won (potential) customers base in the
720/1080p area.
Exciting proposition and a strange move on Jim's part, and yes I know
you can debayer and scale to 1080p in Rcode but it ain't the same.
Thoughts? Mezmo
 
ibloom said:
Ok so hear I go again, with another unpopular oppinion. If you mean 720p and 1080p scaled from the whole chip then I think we need it. For financial reasons not because I think its cool, its not. 4K RedCode RAW is the only thing thats cool. Especially if we can overcrank it...
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Coming late to this thread but IBloom wrote everything I would have anyway. I have all kinds of clients requiring differing deliverables. Some won't have the time, budget, or interest in post-pro transcodes.

Jim, thanks for sharing your musings with everyone. Now that's revolutionary.

Michael
 
not to worry

not to worry

CJ Roy said:
Leaving clients to be responsible to downrez to 1080/720 is a VERY scary idea. Now I have to play additional tech support that I didn't before. I felt comfortable delivering 4k, 2k, 1080, 720 because one of those formats is what they'd ask for, anything else could be additional work, thus additional income.

-CJ
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Haha, too true, CJ! The last thing you want is for the client to be responisble for any deliverables. I've seen production companies try that - to disastrous consequences. But I don't think you have as much to worry about as you think. With Red Cine at your fingertips, you will be able to transcode your 4k or 2k files into whatever resolution you will be finishing at. This is one extra step, but since it takes place BEFORE the edit, you'll be editing and finishing in the final delivery format. AND by saving those original 4k/2k files, if your client who originally asked for a 720 deliverable suddenly comes back looking for a 1080, you can use your original edit to conform a 1080 master without having to go through the painful process of "uprezzing". Something to consider.

On a side note, I'm a big fan of your work. When I saw "HUMAN" 4 years ago, it blew me away. If you can do that with an XL1, I can't wait to see what you will do with RED. Great things, CJ, keep doing great things.
 
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