720P and 1080P... losers

[Michael Hastings]

Vote for field programmability.

Vote for field programmability.

This discussion is getting pretty spread out.Copied from the other thread:

So for broadcast the old '720p RGB @ 120fps max' option made the Red camera superior to almost any broadcast camera quality and recording wise.

Damn, that's pretty decent point.!

AGREED!!!
PLEASE KEEP 1080P for a number of projects where 1080 is more than sufficient I prefer to deal with the lower res footage, the recording options and variety of options of Red are part of what make this camera so appealing.

and that is too!

So the first question is which can happen first, it seems to me we were told RGB would be one of the last things implemented (RGB onboard is a whole 'nuther deal). So maybe we go with the 2K 96 for now and push for the option of field reprogramming the FPGA for those who need or want the 720p/1080p options. That might give all of us a nice immediate upgrade (2K 96 that is) and take a little pressure off the REDteam for getting RGB finished.

The guy on the other thread that posed the idea of letting the user program the FPGA for his desired mode made a lot of sense. After all I think the FP in FPGA stands for field programmbable and I assume the simple CF card update process that Jim has talked about includes updating the FPGA.

Jim, any thoughts?

 

[Steve Gibby]

Really the only issue would appear to be the one of downconverting.

Actually, I see another issue besides downconverting, and I summarized it toward the end of my post #236 of this thread:

"I think 1080p needs to stay. We’ve confirmed that using an Abakas or RED B4 adaptor that B4 2/3” lenses will cover 2k, but no tests have been done to check the resolution and quality of those images. If RED was to totally eliminate 1080p, and a 2k/B4 adaptor/B4 lens setup turned out to not work well, that would effectively eliminate B4 2/3” lens use on RED One – which would preclude lots of guys from using their 2/3” HD lenses, and also eliminate a lot of the EFP market potential from RED One sales, including most television networks and independent television production companies (packagers/self-syndicators)"

Those who work in a narrow range of genres seem to care less about this consideration, but those of us who work across a broad range of cine-style and EFP style genres are interested in maintaining the flexibility and utility of RED One - because it maximizes our skill set potential, and affects our revenue generating capability. We need to use all of these lens types alternately for the range of productions we do: S35mm, 35mm still, S16mm, B4 2/3" HD.

Again, my vote is yes to 2k RC RAW @96fps (or faster), and elimination of 720p if that's what it takes to enable the higher fps 2k, but definitely keep 1080p for the reason I summarized above, and many other reasons others have itemized in this thread.

 

[Justin O'Neill]

I agree with Gibby.

Personally I will have more use for 2k@96fps, but other people will be using my cameras as well, and I can definitely see where 1080p will be important in certain situations.

 

[Joe Carney]

Aren't most of those 2/3" lenses designed for a three chip camera with a prism?

 

[Todd Anderson]

Fps

Fps

2K@96fps vote.

And what about 4K@48fps and dumping something else???

Also, with the mention of 4K at 60fps on board for the "future", what all does that entail? Are we talking a firmware update? Or something more costly? We're not talking RED 1.5, are we...

Thanks.

 

[Steve Gibby]

Aren't most of those 2/3" lenses designed for a three chip camera with a prism?

Yes...and the RED and Abakas B4 adoptors are designed to correct for that.

 

[Keith Nealy]

Jim, I have to agree with Gibby on this. By far the biggest segment of the avalable markets will be EFP.

Now, creating the best cinema camera is a worthy goal but the price point for smaller markets usually has to be much higher to support R&D, manufacturing, etc. On smaller production runs for narrow vertical markets you lose the economy of scale and must demand higher prices to make a profit so you can expand and grow and make it to 2.0.

I wonder if there is enough of market in cinema filmmakers to justify the low price of RED? Worldwide - there very well may be but only you know that at this point.

By including the EFP shooters - at least in this version - the market is far more vast and will insure the success and acceptance of RED in the industry as a camera that truly revolutionized the art and technology of cinema and video.

aloha,

Keith

 

[Joel Kaye]

120fps is 5 times cranked, 96fps is 4 times cranked. 2K is 2.6 times the resolution of 720P. The math seems to support 2K @ 96fps. Just sayin'...

Jim

I dunno - I think a test would be in order. I don't really understand how everyone is arriving at "this is better than that".

Let's just say you wanted 120fps at 2K somehow. I think uprezzing an existing 720p 120fps MIGHT be an easier interpolation because the uprezzing algorithms for exising frames are so good. Whereas building a missing frame (to get from 96 to 120) might be more difficult. I don't know that though. The re-timing software out there seem to be very good too...

But if you're capturing an explosion or a waterfall or sand from a bunker shot... you might really want that 120fps even at lower res and even if you're deliverable is 2k or 1080P.

Graeme probably has an opinion here worth considering.

Also - if a 2K recording resolution forces a 16mm FOV crop that's kind of annoying to have to deal with... I'm unclear if that's the case.

Also - fast turnaround people have to be considered. Since you'll have to transcode RED anyhow the question becomes would recording in your final format save very much time in post.

I'm with you I'm recording 4K 24 fps most of the time. But I know I'll do some high speed too. I'll be happy either way ultimately - but still...

Just sayin'... test it.

 

[Jeff Mustaman]

2K@96fps vote!!!

If you look at the 2 options it should be pretty clear..

- You can always crop the image to 720p or 1080p. (REDCINE can output this, I bet it wouldn't take to much time.)

If you could choose beteen 1080p 120fps or 2K 96fps than I would understand, but even blueray plays the full 1080p. In the near future.. what are you going to do with 720p??

Retiming software is pretty good these day, but still involves a lot of work. ( More work then a crop.) And 2K @96fps in retiming, you could deffinitly get a good 150fps!!!

 

[Stephen Webb]

Those who work in a narrow range of genres seem to care less about this consideration, but those of us who work across a broad range of cine-style and EFP style genres are interested in maintaining the flexibility and utility of RED One - because it maximizes our skill set potential, and affects our revenue generating capability. We need to use all of these lens types alternately for the range of productions we do: S35mm, 35mm still, S16mm, B4 2/3" HD.

Just out of curiosity, is there a reason you'd pick a 2/3" lens over a s16 one?

Anyway, let's assume you do need a B4 mount lens, then we need to know two things:

1) Will a HD lens cover the 2K portion of the sensor with acceptable results?
and
2) Is transcoding from 2K to 1080p/720p significantly slower than transcoding from 1080p/720p Redcode RGB?

before we can make an informed choice.

:weight_lift:

 

[Blair S. Paulsen]

Choices

Choices

I vote for 2K @ 96fps. If I need to go faster I'll rent a Phantom.

I am not convinced that the differential between 120fps and 96fps is nearly as critical as the enhanced ability to intercut normal speed 4K with slo-mo 2K. Perhaps 720 will cut well with 4K, but common sense tells me that it is much more likely to be noticeable than cutting in 2K.

 

[Steve Gibby]

Just out of curiosity, is there a reason you'd pick a 2/3" lens over a s16 one?

Here’s some: style and intended use of an EFP production determines that a 2/3’ lens is the most logical field workflow selection, rocker zoom via servo is desired (RED 12 volt aux power enables that), maximizing a legacy investment in your 2/3” HD lenses, contract work for various entities that requires an EFP style that determines a 2/3” lens is the best choice, and many more reasons I could list.

1) Will a HD lens cover the 2K portion of the sensor with acceptable results?

RED has previously verified that in their testing of the Abakas B4 adaptor that 2/3” HD lenses will cover the 2k portion of the sensor. The adaptor optically spreads the image out to dimensions that will cover 2k. The RED B4 adaptor will be a modified Abakas adaptor and 2/3” HD lenses used with will also cover 2k. What hasn’t been tested in depth is the quality of the results from a B4 adaptor/2/3” HD lens setup on a RED One camera. Jarred did post a few months ago that his brief tests with an Abakas B4 adaptor and a Fujinon 13x HD ENG zoom brought good results. More testing needs to be done. If a B4 adaptor is available to LART, we’ll test B4 adaptor/2/3” HD ENG and HD cine setups.

2) Is transcoding from 2K to 1080p/720p significantly slower than transcoding from 1080p/720p Redcode RGB?

1080p RGB should be readily usable in most client NLE’s, thus a simple dub of 1080p RGB to a HDD or other medium may be all that is necessary for delivery of client footage – in other words, if 1080p RGB remains in the specifications, there may be no transcoding necessary at all for delivery.


-------------------------------------

To retain the versatility and revenue generation potential of RED One, I feel that 1080p RGB should remain in the specifications. If 720p goes away to gain 2k RC RAW @96 (or higher) fps, I think that’s fine. There are many EFP projects where 35mm DOF is neither desired nor wanted – and those projects can generate a lot of revenue for versatile shooters with open minds.

 

[Paul Hazlett]

Just out of curiosity, is there a reason you'd pick a 2/3" lens over a s16 one?


:

One reason...I already own one.

 

[Emanuel A.]

LOL Fair enough. This has made RED.

 

[Stephen Webb]

1080p RGB should be readily usable in most client NLE’s, thus a simple dub of 1080p RGB to a HDD or other medium may be all that is necessary for delivery of client footage – in other words, if 1080p RGB remains in the specifications, there may be no transcoding necessary at all for delivery.

Except that it's encoded using Redcode - so it has to be transcoded to whatever the editing/delivery format is. Granted if you can play Redcode RGB straight off the timeline & output as Uncompressed HD on the fly then no problems, but that's part of what we don't know. Yet.

 

[Stephen Webb]

One reason...I already own one.

And I imagine that's probably the main reason for many who want to use B4's. And a perfectly good reason it is too, I was just wondering if there was any qualitative difference is all.

 

[Steve Gibby]

Except that it's encoded using Redcode - so it has to be transcoded to whatever the editing/delivery format is. Granted if you can play Redcode RGB straight off the timeline & output as Uncompressed HD on the fly then no problems, but that's part of what we don't know. Yet.

REDCODE has already been stated as being supported by FCP and undoubtedly other NLE's will need to follow to compete with FCP. I don't think it will be long before virtually all NLE systems support REDCODE. The more that support REDCODE on the timeline, the less there will be a need to transcode before delivery to clients. There will obviously be exceptions, and some entities will object to a HDD delivery of REDCODE RGB, but those should subside rapidly as the workflow becomes widespread.

We'll know a lot more soon when the cameras ship and can be tested. Looking forward to it!

I think 1080p RGB should stay in the specifications of RED One...

 

[Corrado Silveri]

Me too, Steve.
I think this is the first time that I'm not completely agree with Jim...

Maybe I'me getting old?

Corrado.

 

[Andrew Young]

2k@96 Yes! But please keep 1080p

2k@96 Yes! But please keep 1080p

I agree with Gibby.

Windowed 2k RC RAW @96fps would be excellent indeed – but even better if it was scaled. For me, 720p could go away if it enabled 2k RC RAW @96fps. But for me to easily do a lot of the genres I work in, I think 1080p needs to stay.

I split my time between my own productions (which will be in 4K/2K with my 2 Reds) and work for hire - which needs to be in whatever format the client wants. And when I go off for a week long shoot for American Experience or Nat Geo, I need to hand the producer the footage before I get on the plane home. Downconverting a week's worth of footage at the end is not going to be an option for many shoots. But 1080p RGB Quicktimes might be - if Red gains significant market share.

Red is the first cam in a long time that makes sense to me as an owner/operator precisely because it accommodates most formats. It would be a real bummer after investing all this money in Red to have to go out and rent an HD camera, because that's the format that the client wants and I don't have time to convert my Red footage.

2K@96 would make me very very happy. 720p removed would not make me the least bit sad. But 1080 is going to be here for a long time and many of us will make a living shooting 1080 for clients that need their footage at the end of the day. Please keep 1080p. The Red market share will be vastly bigger and that will help us all.

Thanks Jim for allowing this spirited debate to take place. Your approach is unprecedented and very refreshing.

 

[Paul Hazlett]

And I imagine that's probably the main reason for many who want to use B4's. And a perfectly good reason it is too, I was just wondering if there was any qualitative difference is all.

one reason....which I have no idea of, But I am sure LART shall uncover