The Sony 4k projector...opinions?

[Jeff Brue]

Ok guys I'm looking at purchasing a cinema grade projector for DI and the main choices that are apparent are Christie, Barco, NEC, and the Sony 4k.

I've been hearing about color reproduction issues and high cost of maintenance with the sony 4k. I know that internally the machine supports a 3d LUT for calibration, if so whats the depth of the LUT and how is its effective color interpolation? If we're currently only looking for the 2k option (until when red delivers) how is its effective upsampling ?

In any case I'm getting the sales guys opinions, and I'd like to hear from my peers. We're an assimilate scratch and Final cut post house/ data management facility.

Jeff Brue
DFC

 

[Mark L. Pederson]

for the love of god - don't buy before NAB.

IMHO - If you MUST buy in the short term - I suggest a SONY or PANASONIC 1080p projector - there is just to much movement in 2K + projection at the moment -

I know many folks are using SONY 1080p projectors waiting for the 2K+ market to "settle" -

 

[Jeff Kilgroe]

I agree with offhollywood. The Sony 1080p "Ruby" projector is less than $10K and is a very solid unit with excellent performance. There are also some 1080p DLP projectors on the market too that are incredible. Although, I'm not aware of any 3-chip, full 1920x1080p (non wobulated) DLP projectors that are as "cheap" as they Sony.

 

[MikeCurtis]

see my notes I've posted from NAB Digital Cinema Summit about projectors, bulbs, color temperature, overcompensation to handle calibration issues, etc.

See the archives.

 

[Rob Lohman]

The Sony 1080p "Ruby" projector is less than $10K and is a very solid unit with excellent performance.

In that case I would go with the newer Sony Pearl (VPL-VW50) for under $5K (full 1920 x 1080).

There are apparently some other amazing 1080p projectors out these days for under $10K.

 

[Jeff Brue]

Well in regards to the 1080P projectors, they don't meet the minimum DCI spec. So thats kind of the end of that. Especially when you're looking at building a DI suite. As far as buying before NAB, no we won't, as I expect price drops and new releases. Not to mention all the fun stuff I expect from red/scratch/nvidia.

 

[Mike Devlin]

Well in regards to the 1080P projectors, they don't meet the minimum DCI spec. So thats kind of the end of that. Especially when you're looking at building a DI suite. As far as buying before NAB, no we won't, as I expect price drops and new releases. Not to mention all the fun stuff I expect from red/scratch/nvidia.

While I would probaly agree with the sentiment to wait until after NAB, I will say that I have been very impressed with the Sony SXRD compared to DLP. We have an NEC iS8-2k Digital Cinema projector (2K) and a Sony SRX-R105 projector (4K) as well as several of the Sony 1080P SXRD "consumer" products. We had a Christie Cinema projector, but we returned it because of a few spec issues (as much our fault as Christie's in retrospect).

We currently have the SRX-105 and the NEC iS8-2K set up in the same room on the same screen (16 foot Stewart FilmSreen GrayHawk RS) so we can make direct comparisons (since the Sony just arrived). Both projector's are excellent and produce great images. But the increased resolution and higher fill factor of the Sony does make more of a difference than I expected.

Currently we are an Avid shop doing 1080P, expecting to do 4K when we get our REDS. Even 1080P material (direct from Avid or from HDCAM SR) looks better on the Sony, especially if you are looking for minor artifacting and such during post.

Here is a very simple example of the difference that occurs even without post processing. When we connect a camera (F900R or HDC1500) directly to the two projectors and test resolution using a multiburst chart we find an apparent 50-100 lpph increase in resolution (same lenses on both cameras, both ENG and Cine style) when using the Sony projector. After playing around with this for a bit I believe there are two things going on.

First of all, these cameras are pushing the resolution limits of the NEC so we see aliasing there being introduced by the projector rather than the camera. Since the Sony is 4k this is not a problem. Secondly, the lower fill factor of the DLP projector means that when you get up close (2-3 feet from the screen, reading glasses on) to inspect fine detail the "screen door" effect is extremely visible (and of course the pixels are larger). This causes a few strange optical illusions (think circular multiburst pattern on square screen door pattern) that are difficult to separate from aliasing. Someone who is more technical can probably explain all this better than I can.

It is hard to separate the fill factor from the 4K vs 2K resolution issue, but I believe both are having an impact. Bottom line, I am skeptical of those who say any decent 1080P projector will work for postproduction or DI work with RED. We are seeing a big difference between the NEC 2K projector and the 4K Sony even using our 1080P cameras. Certainly we will only be purchasing 4K projectors going forward.

Regarding the earlier questions re 3D LUTs, I don't have a answer but some of the Sony SXRD tech folks will be at our site Friday and I will try to clarify, assuming I understand the issue. And if service is a part of your decision process I will say that we have received much better support from Sony (projectors, cameras, decks, etc) than from any other vendor except perhaps Fujinon, who also provides great support. I would probably pick Sony over Barco, Christie or NEC just on support alone. Barco and Christie probably provide better support to the theatre chains than they do to a lowly post production shop that just needs one or two projectors.

 

[Jeff Brue]

Thank you mike, great information. Personally, I'd rather go for the 4k, just as its where things are going. If you are having the sony reps come down. If you could ask them one question (I've had several resellers down here in LA say this) ask them (or if you can) throw up a flat 50 % grey field and see if there's any magenta tonal shift across the screen. Thats the only criticism I've heard so far, and I'm getting the wait till NAB to see it from all the vendors,
but my companies owner wants answers now of course. Again thanks for the response.

 

[Mike Devlin]

Color shift in Sony 4K projector

Color shift in Sony 4K projector

I have heard the same comment about the Sony 4K having slight color shift (reps of NEC, Barco and Christie like to point it out) but I have not seen it after looking at lots of test patterns. The Sony rep tells me that was a problem they fixed a while ago.

You suggest a very simple test which I will try sometime in the next 24 hours. In addition to generating such a 50% grey field in Avid and projecting it I will also try shooting a MacBeth or DSC gray scale (zoomed in on the 50% chip) with the HDC1500 in 4:4:4 mode and see what we get, although that may be testing the camera/lens more than the projector. I will certainly show the Sony guys if there is a problem (projector or camera!). There are a zillion controls in the projector software to optimize the image, and we have only figured out about half of them.

 

[Jeff Brue]

I think that this is going to be a problem for any hardware that is so software dependent (including the red). Problems early in the life cycle of a product that perpetuate as myths even after the problems have been fixed. Again thaks mike.

 

[Mike Devlin]

Okay Jeff, I did test the NEC 2K and Sony 4K head-to-head using the 50% gray field. Initially the NEC did appear more uniform, but the Sony guys were here today with there "uniformity jig". Once they were done (takes about an hour) the Sony was perfectly uniform (better than the NEC). Note that anytime you make a major change to the lamp setting you should really re-run this calibration (for example if you got to a bigger screen).

Anyway, I now think that some of the rumors concerning color shift with the Sony 4K come from people who did not have this "uniformity jig" to calibrate the projector. Basically the jig seems to be a camera that is imaging the screen (with a 50% gray field) connected to a computer running some software which analyzes each area of the screen and adjusts the response of the projector for each pixel so that you get a uniform field. I think NEC did something similar when they installed our iS8-2K, but it has been almost three years and I am not quite sure what they did when they were here.

Again I was very pleased with Sony support, although they could have mentioned this to me earlier.

At this point I see no reason to choose any of the 2K cinema projectors (Christie, Barco, NEC) over the Sony 4K. The prices are similar and the 4K does give you lots of advantages.

 

[Jeff Brue]

Awesome Mike,
Yeah I imagine that their set up is essentially a 3D LUT calibration engine , we currently have the gretag macbeth for all of our normal studio monitors and cinespace, that can run a simliar config for calibration of projectors. The issue being that for most lower end projectors it would take a 3D LUT box like a Luther or a Cintel to put them in a simulated correct color space. In any case Its good to know that sony will configure and calibrate it to that degree. If you make it down to NAB I'll buy you a beer.

Jeff Brue
Digital Film Company
jeff@thecamerahouse.com